Need advice: run in with Kilt (feather?) Police

[Cynthia]

This is an old thread and I've told Ronusan it was resurrected... he probably just hasn't had a chance to come check it out yet (he doesn't get much of a chance to visit here these days).

I've seen the feathers he's talking about. They're tiny... there's no way anyone could even begin to mistake them for eagle feathers. He talks about the clan plant badge option here.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Actually three points....this is the good ole U.S. of A. Wear what you please. We are under no garment authority here!

I know you didn't mean for it to come off sounding this way, but statements like the one you've just made are what sometimes create the impression of "The Ugly American"-- ignorant and willfully disrespectful of the cultural traditions of other people, even within the boundaries of your own country.

[JimB]

I know you didn't mean for it to come off sounding this way, but statements like the one you've just made are what sometimes create the impression of "The Ugly American"-- ignorant and willfully disrespectful of the cultural traditions of other people, even within the boundaries of your own country.

Actually this is quite offensive. Ugly American indeed!

No, I'm not willingly disrespectful. Actually I'm very respectful of custom. I'm just acknowledging that to me modern kilt wear is a personal thing. To me, kilts are worn as clothes, not as a uniform. I don't go out of my way to pose as anything I'm not nor offend anyone. BUT nobody has a right to correct me in how I dress and I would be very rude to correct anyone else. The gentleman in question no doubt broke no rules or conventions, but was questioned by someone who thought he could put some rules on him. He was not trying to impersonate a clan chief. The other fellow was just trying to be a know it all.

An example...one Sunday at church I was wearing a kilt in pretty formal style...jacket, tie, and lace up wingtips (conventionally wearing a classic sporran, kilt pin, flashes, and all the other dodads) Some moron told me "you know that's not the type of shoes they USED to wear". Well SO... I'm not a reenactor...it's what a modern day kilt wearer choses to wear that given Sunday!
The next time somebody tries to act like the kilt police I will ask them for their badge and id.

[Colin]

I get such a kick out the the spectrum of this forum nowadays.

We have threads asking what a traditional highlander would wear as footwear, we have people romanticizing events like Glencoe, Sterling Bridge, and Culloden, we have people that have never set foot in Scotland cursing the English (imagine how North America would look now without their previous influence...), and we have people getting their undies in a bunch when it's pointed out that a feather in the cap is an honor reserved for chief of the clans, whose badges we so romantically have tattooed on our biceps, t-shirts, coffee mugs, kilt pins, etc. If you want to honor the clan, the heraldry of Scotland and all things Scottish (including the kilt) than some respect for the chiefs need to be shown. After all they do a lot to with keeping the idea of the clan present and the homestead of the old clans still standing for us to go visit and get teary eyed at..

I'm not sure why being an individual in a kilt and knowing and respecting some of the traditions and honors of the Scottish clan system have to be separate? For example, we know a suit jacket looks like crap with a kilt so why do some kick and scream about individual choice and "this is AMERICA!!!not Scotland!" instead of simply saying "oops.." or even" I wish I could afford a kilt jacket right now, but it's not a priority in the budget...." . I wish people would stop getting offended by traditions (which always seem okay when they are our own).

I know a lot of people got into kilts to honor their Scottish heritage. In my opinion it is more of a honor to that heritage to respect it's heraldry (it's got it's own bloody court) and traditions, while still bringing your own personality to your wardrobe.

[Peter C.]

Actually this is quite offensive. Ugly American indeed!

No, I'm not willingly disrespectful. Actually I'm very respectful of custom. I'm just acknowledging that to me modern kilt wear is a personal thing. To me, kilts are worn as clothes, not as a uniform. I don't go out of my way to pose as anything I'm not nor offend anyone. BUT nobody has a right to correct me in how I dress and I would be very rude to correct anyone else. The gentleman in question no doubt broke no rules or conventions, but was questioned by someone who thought he could put some rules on him. He was not trying to impersonate a clan chief. The other fellow was just trying to be a know it all.

An example...one Sunday at church I was wearing a kilt in pretty formal style...jacket, tie, and lace up wingtips (conventionally wearing a classic sporran, kilt pin, flashes, and all the other dodads) Some moron told me "you know that's not the type of shoes they USED to wear". Well SO... I'm not a reenactor...it's what a modern day kilt wearer choses to wear that given Sunday!
The next time somebody tries to act like the kilt police I will ask them for their badge and id.

Lace up wingtips, simply known as brogues in Scotland, used to be worn by Scottish regiments, and probably still are.

Peter

[caig]

As an armiger I feel able to respond to this thread, albeit a little late.

I do tend to object to people, whether American, Scottish or other, trying to imitate a clan chief or armiger by wearing long feathers in their bonnet, whilst wearing the kilt. I question why a long feather has been chosen as opposed to any other accroutement/decoration. I suggest that it is to imitate a clan chief/armiger. And that does offend me.

Feathers of about 2-3" tall are excluded from my comments here. These are pure decoration and would not be confused with an eagle feather. A tall pheasant feather, for example, would, certainly at a small distance, look like an eagle feather. Certainly in Scotland this would be taken as the badge of an armiger, and one would presume that the wearer was entitled to wear it. This is not the practice in other countries. However, if one is going to wear the Scottish traditional dress some thought and consideration for the protocols of Scotland would be expected. Indeed it would be discourteous not to do so.

I hope this does not sound too strong but I did suggest in another thread started by JockScot (I think) I said that I would no longer sit quietly when things need saying.

[Andrew M. Stewart]

As an armiger I feel able to respond to this thread, albeit a little late.

I do tend to object to people, whether American, Scottish or other, trying to imitate a clan chief or armiger by wearing long feathers in their bonnet, whilst wearing the kilt. I question why a long feather has been chosen as opposed to any other accroutement/decoration. I suggest that it is to imitate a clan chief/armiger. And that does offend me.

Feathers of about 2-3" tall are excluded from my comments here. These are pure decoration and would not be confused with an eagle feather. A tall pheasant feather, for example, would, certainly at a small distance, look like an eagle feather. Certainly in Scotland this would be taken as the badge of an armiger, and one would presume that the wearer was entitled to wear it. This is not the practice in other countries. However, if one is going to wear the Scottish traditional dress some thought and consideration for the protocols of Scotland would be expected. Indeed it would be discourteous not to do so.

I hope this does not sound too strong but I did suggest in another thread started by JockScot (I think) I said that I would no longer sit quietly when things need saying.

Well said!

[Cynthia]

Feathers of about 2-3" tall are excluded from my comments here.

The OP's feathers would fall into this category. Thanks for clarifying this. I've been a little nervous he'll come here and panic seeing some of the slightly heated discussion in his thread and wonder if some people might be referring to his feathers.

(normally I wouldn't speak for someone else like this, but I haven't heard from him yet and I wanted to clarify it as well since I know him and have seen the feathers in person -- I realize the conversation has grown past the original thread/posting, but I just wanted to make sure people knew he was not wearing anything resembling a long feather of any sort)

[JimB]

Now that everyone is on their high horse, was anyone in the story wearing an eagle feather?

OH, and my J.C. Penny's wingtips and brogues do not look alike. Similar yes.

[RainyDayPiper]

The interesting thing is here in America the wearing of eagle feather's are by federal law reserved for Native Americans only it is illegal for anyone else to wear them here.

Sort of, but that's not the full story. It's illegal for most people to wear bald eagle feathers, golden eagle feathers, and other feathers from eagles that are native to North America. However, there ARE eagle species on other continents that are not protected, such as the South African sea eagle, and armigers/chiefs can obtain them legally. Always be careful, though, because a lot of officials may not know the difference or the ins-and-outs of the law, and there is a lot of confusion due to wording of the law. For example, not even all Native Americans are legally allowed to possess bald eagle feathers-- only those who are members of legally-recognized tribes, which excludes thousands of Natives that are in tribes that have yet to be recognized, or who are not official members of a tribal group. To my knowledge, law enforcement typically lets that slide.

But an armiger who doesn't have legal access to eagle feathers will often wear feathers from other birds, such as hawks, pheasants, dyed turkey feathers, etc, and you can also buy immitation eagle feathers. More commonly these days, however, the feathers are cast from silver and attached directly to the armiger's cap badge. They're usually only an inch or so tall, as today's style is more subdued.

Personally, if I were not an armiger, I wouldn't wear a feather in my cap that sticks out much at all (including a long pheasant feather, which armigers have been known to use to denote their status); if anything, it would be a small plume or hackle that wouldn't be confused with a feather sticking out of the cap badge. And, yes, I'd call it macaroni . Or perhaps more appropriately, I'd stick a feather in my cap and call it MacAroni