"NOWHERE does box pleated kilts!"

[Redshank]

Having seen at close hand a so called 5 yard box pleat kilt, and compared its build, swish and sway to a handcrafted 8 yard knife pleat...............

I am with Jock on this one

[Jock Scot]

Why shouldn't the box pleat be reintroduced back to Scotland? Its part of its past and an option that could have more Scots wearing the kilt, again. Could it be a bad thing? or should it remain the way it is..

Why not indeed.I am not against choice in any way. Although at least one kiltmaker in Scotland who presumably needs to make money, knows what they can sell and what they cannot, in Scotland. Chris(Redshank) has an advantage over me in that he has actually seen, close to even, a civilian box pleated kilt and I note his comments with interest.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Having seen at close hand a so called 5 yard box pleat kilt, and compared its build, swish and sway to a handcrafted 8 yard knife pleat...............

I am with Jock on this one

Hmmm. Have you ever seen the swish of a 7 yards Double Box Pleated kilt ?

But none of this ! The important thing isn't to just go swishing around now is it ? You may prefer a knife pleated kilt and this is perfectly all right.

But to deny the charm, the elegance, the stylishness and the sophistication of the Box Pleated kilt family is a very , very personal, subjective and risky choice.

Nonetheless if you wish to close your borders to the invasion of Box and Double Box kilts, , well, I'm afraid it will have the "Parmentier effect". Who doesn’t eat potatoes today ?

If something is depreciated for bad reasons, chances are it will become an uncontrollable trend that will develop into a movement and ultimately tomorrow’s tradition .

Look what brought the prohibition of the tartan ! A tidal wave.


Best,

Robert

[Mac Ghille Sheathanaich]

Greetings all, 27 September, 1257pmMST
Not wanting to appear more ignorant than I really am................
But could someone explain the difference to me in the 4-yard box pleat, vs. the 8-yard "military" box pleat.

This is part of my eternal quest for understanding, and looking for the as yet undiscovered repeating patterns in the chaos.

I've already found the repeating pattens in the tartan fabric, so that is one quest concluded.

Regards aye,

T.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Some information about kilt pleats can be found here : www.ladychrystel.com


Best,

Robert

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I don't think the nomenclature "civilian box pleated kilt" and "military box pleated kilt" is really all that accurate. By that I mean that I am a civilian and, if I wanted to, I could have an 8 yard box pleated kilt made (in the military style) in any tartan I wish and wear it in a civilian fashion. It's not limited to the military.

I think it is more reasonable to say "traditional box pleated kilt" and perhaps "modern box pleated kilt" referring to the four and eight yard styles, respectively. But really, the best way to distinguish them is just to say "four yard" and "eight yard."

More to write, but the dinner bell just rang....

[Kiltman]

Isn't ignorance wonderful? In my many visits to other kilt makers who are traditionally trained I've noted an ignorance about both the history and the possibilities of kilts. I understand the business side of making kilts, but I also applaud kilt makers who, like Steve, Barb, Matt and others, make the effort to go beyond the 'traditional'. That is the difference that makes a kilt maker a craftsman.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

In a knife pleated kilt, all the pleats run in one direction. This is the most common form of pleating in kilts today.

In a box pleated kilt, the pleats run in alternate directions, resulting in a "box" being formed by two opposing pleats. This was the original style of pleating the tailored kilt, common from the late eighteenth through to the mid-nineteenth century.

The original tailored kilts of that era also had about four yards of cloth. And as it turns out, a box pleated kilt made from about four yards of cloth, on an average sized man, results in pleats that just do meet in the middle. Of course with the variables involved in tartan sett size and the size of the wearer, some kilts will have pleats that overlap slightly inside, others with pleats that have some gap between them on the inside -- but the bulk will come pretty close to just meeting inside each pleat.

What happens when you add more cloth?

Well, when you add more cloth your kilt will have more pleats, the visible part of the pleat will be more narrow, and the pleats will be deeper. Same as in a knife pleated kilt.

The only difference is that with a knife pleated kilt, all the pleats run in the same direction and so having overlapping pleats in the kilt is no big deal. In a box pleated kilt, pleats run in opposing directions, so only so much overlap is possible.

This means that if you increase the yardage in a box pleated kilt too much, the pleat on one side of the "box" will need to be much more shallow, in order to allow the pleat on the other side to be deep enough to account for all the fabric.

In the end, if you make a box pleated kilt with eight yards of fabric (a lot of the military kilts we are discussing actually use much less, by the way), it ends up looking a lot like a typical knife pleated kilt, with the end of each pleat turned back on itself. The "boxes" are, in fact, much smaller.

The amount of fabric used in a kilt increased over the course of the nineteenth century. At the start of the century, four yards was the norm. But the time you get to the end of the nineteenth century, eight yards is the norm.

At the start of the nineteenth century, box pleats were the norm. In 1854 the Gordon regiment became the first regiment to switch to knife pleating. By the end of the nineteenth century, knife pleating was the norm.

Also consider that at the beginning of the nineteenth century, a lot of men in the Highlands routinely wore their kilt as a part of their daily dress. By the end of the nineteenth century, the kilt had become largely a peice of ceremonial dress, worn for special occasions (when this happens, the dress has a tendency to become more stylized).

The four yard kilt is going to be lighter, more comfortable to wear, less expensive, and yes, does not "swish and swing" like an eight yard kilt.

The eight yard kilt is going to be heavier, more costly, and have more "swish and swing" resulting from the bulk of the weight being in the rear (making it also somewhat less comfortable to wear).

In other words, both kinds of kilt have their advantages and disadvantages, and one's preference largely will depend upon what criteria one finds important. I, for one, own and enjoy wearing both kinds.

Both kinds are rooted in Scottish history and tradition.

Regarding the "build" of the kilt, noted in Redshank's comment, all I can say is that I have seen very poorly constructed box pleated kilts, knife pleated kilts, four yard kilts and eight yard kilts. I've also seen maticulously constructed kilts of all those descriptions. I think it is patently unfair to class all four yard box pleated kilts as shabbily built (not your words, I know, Redshanks, but that's the impression I got), as compared to eight yard knife pleated kilts.

I also think it's a bit of a red herring to keep referring to box pleated kilts as "irelevant" in Scotlant. They certainly are relevant to anyone with an interest in Highland dress, as they are a very important part of the history and development of Scottish Highland dress tradition.

I think a better word would be "uncommon" or "less known" when compared to the more usual eight yard knife pleated kilt. But that's hardly unique to Scotland. The fact is that the four yard box pleated kilt largely resided in museums until their modern revival in 1984 by kiltmaker Bob Martin. In Scotland, England, North America, Australia, and anywhere else the kilt is worn, the "normal" kilt most people recognize is an eight yard knife pleated kilt. Any other variation is going to be seen as a bit unusual. This is not unique to Scotland. That doesn't make the box pleated kilt (four yards, eight yards, six yards or what have you) any less a part of the actual history and tradition of Highland dress.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Isn't ignorance wonderful?

I would say exhausting …


Best,

Robert

[Kiltman]

Regarding the "build" of the kilt, noted in Redshank's comment, all I can say is that I have seen very poorly constructed box pleated kilts, knife pleated kilts, four yard kilts and eight yard kilts. I've also seen maticulously constructed kilts of all those descriptions. I think it is patently unfair to class all four yard box pleated kilts as shabbily built (not your words, I know, Redshanks, but that's the impression I got), as compared to eight yard knife pleated kilts.

I've repaired several knife pleated kilts of very poor construction in the last year or so. It really does depend on the skills of the kilt maker.