formal jackets and the cookie cutter aversion

[Bugbear]

gee Ted, I have a rusty orange(you of the right age remember the color) Levis WIDE wale corduroy blazer. As it has no lining, it ought to be easy to modify. Can you all imagine it with, well any kilt you can think of?

Bob

That sounds great, but credit where credit is due. It was all MacMillan of Rathdown's idea. He brought the concept of corduroy being good for kilt jackets to the forum; though I think James MacMillan was the first to bring it up with his black corduroy conversion thread. (Rathdown equals acceptable Highland attire.)

As far as evening wear, he suggested a black pin wale corduroy doublet in an Argyle cut with ribbed silk lapels and cuffs.

My daywear kilt jacket is a medium brown pin wale corduroy and waistcoat. There are no epaulets or Argyle cuffs. I re-tailored it from a suit that came from a family member.

[OC Richard]

I'm new to this forum and to this discussion. My reaction to the original post is that at most of the formal things I've attended the Highland dress doesn't show all that much variation: everyone in Prince Charlies, white shirts, black bowties, offwhite hose, and ghillies. Of course the tartan of the kilt varies, and the exact style of sporran, so it's true that there is more colour and variety than there is in Saxon formal wear.

When I first got into piping 35 years ago it seems like there was more variety: every Highland Dress shop carried five or six different styles of formal jackets and at events I would actually see some of these different styles being worn. (I myself used to wear a Burgundy velvet Montrose Doublet back in the early 80's.) Over the years the Prince Charlie seems to have won out, though the semi-formal Argyll/Crail/Braemar jacket is often seen pressed into full-fledged formal duty.

In the pipe band world there is even less variety: a decade or so ago every single band I saw in the Grade One Finals in Glasgow wore the same uniform, consisting of black Glen, black Argyll jacket, pure white popcorn hose, and black ghillies. Only the tartan of the kilt varied. All but one or two bands even wore the same sporran style, a black leather Hunting Sporran with chrome Evening cantle stuck on.
Nowadays at least a few bands are wearing different socks, black and navy blue suddenly becoming popular.

What's cool is the huge variety of 1860's Highland Dress seen in The Highlanders Of Scotland. Amazing all the different shoe styles and jacket styles etc etc.

But then photos of pipers going from the 1860's all up through the 1930's show one single jacket style over and over again. It seems to have been regarded as the universal style for pipers. I wouldn't know what to call it. Nobody seems to make it anymore. (Several people claim to make these but none have been able to furnish a photo of one they have actually made.)

[Jock Scot]

I'm new to this forum and to this discussion. My reaction to the original post is that at most of the formal things I've attended the Highland dress doesn't show all that much variation: everyone in Prince Charlies, white shirts, black bowties, offwhite hose, and ghillies. Of course the tartan of the kilt varies, and the exact style of sporran, so it's true that there is more colour and variety than there is in Saxon formal wear.

When I first got into piping 35 years ago it seems like there was more variety: every Highland Dress shop carried five or six different styles of formal jackets and at events I would actually see some of these different styles being worn. (I myself used to wear a Burgundy velvet Montrose Doublet back in the early 80's.) Over the years the Prince Charlie seems to have won out, though the semi-formal Argyll/Crail/Braemar jacket is often seen pressed into full-fledged formal duty.

In the pipe band world there is even less variety: a decade or so ago every single band I saw in the Grade One Finals in Glasgow wore the same uniform, consisting of black Glen, black Argyll jacket, pure white popcorn hose, and black ghillies. Only the tartan of the kilt varied. All but one or two bands even wore the same sporran style, a black leather Hunting Sporran with chrome Evening cantle stuck on.
Nowadays at least a few bands are wearing different socks, black and navy blue suddenly becoming popular.

What's cool is the huge variety of 1860's Highland Dress seen in The Highlanders Of Scotland. Amazing all the different shoe styles and jacket styles etc etc.

But then photos of pipers going from the 1860's all up through the 1930's show one single jacket style over and over again. It seems to have been regarded as the universal style for pipers. I wouldn't know what to call it. Nobody seems to make it anymore. (Several people claim to make these but none have been able to furnish a photo of one they have actually made.)

You are so right on evening wear, I am not a follower of bands so I cannot really comment. I think it is this one style fits all mentality that seems to run through society today and helped along by the hire companies. Also there is, often, a lack of confidence, by those that don't really know the form, to buck the trend. It is a shame not to see the Sherriffmuir, Montrose,Regulation doublet and even some long lost design in tartan or various coloured velvets in action at an evening do, like in the old days.

[MacLowlife]

Thanks, Jock Scot,

As a friend of mine often says "Ain't it, dough."


I was interested, in my quest for a PC of a different color, to see blue ones offered from time to time on eBay, and even the evil hire companies offering them in burgundy and bottle green. K-A show a wide range of options, they just all cost 400 pounds.

Someone has already observed elsewhere that the used / ex regimental goods are almost always fairly small- 36 and 38 chest. As someone who was there, do you remember any UK WWII vets being large men- 6'2" and taller, 46" chests and the like? Or has widespread nutrition brought about a race of giants only in the last 30 or 40 years? Something tells me there are more Montrose doublets available for those who have maintained staunch waistlines than for those of us who haven't.

[Jock Scot]

Thanks, Jock Scot,

As a friend of mine often says "Ain't it, dough."


I was interested, in my quest for a PC of a different color, to see blue ones offered from time to time on eBay, and even the evil hire companies offering them in burgundy and bottle green. K-A show a wide range of options, they just all cost 400 pounds.

Someone has already observed elsewhere that the used / ex regimental goods are almost always fairly small- 36 and 38 chest. As someone who was there, do you remember any UK WWII vets being large men- 6'2" and taller, 46" chests and the like? Or has widespread nutrition brought about a race of giants only in the last 30 or 40 years? Something tells me there are more Montrose doublets available for those who have maintained staunch waistlines than for those of us who haven't.

Well yes and no, my father and his six brothers were all well over 6ft, but I don't think they would have had 46 inch chests in the 1940's! The Sheriffmuir is quite the best for expanding waistlines------sadly my waistline has exceeded the leeway that even my Sheriffmuir can give!

[Phil]

I have a lovely green velvet Montrose that I have sadly outgrown and would dearly like to shrink back into. But then I would have to have my kilts re-modelled along with my other jackets so I think I will stay as I am!

[Bugbear]

A long time back, I remember seeing a velvet jacket, not a kilt jacket, that was an extremely dark red. It looked black except the luster of the velvet had a red tent. I guess velvet does that.

[MacLowlife]

MONEY ( or advice) WHERE MOUTHS ARE, PLEASE


This is only slightly OT... I received in the mail today a dark blue velvet jacket- blazer cut, but slightly short for me. NOT short enough for kilt wear, but short ( and cheap ) enough for modification to be in order. I took a seam ripper to the open patch pockets and the sleeve cuffs. The pockets left pretty severe ghosts, but the sleeves could be hemmed as they are. The lapels are moderate, with a notch.

Those of you who dislike the cookie cutter are being asked how to make this one anything but...

My thinking is this would be a great candidate for some tartan facings, as we have sometimes seen on mess jackets.

I have three questions:
1) silk or wooly facings?
2) Black watch or Royal Stewart?
3) What style / length ( Argyle, Kenmore, Dress Mess)?

OK, actually four- just how much to actually put on the facings: cuffs, lapels, collar and lapels...If it ends up Argyle, what about pocket flaps?

As is, the body fits perfectly for a Kenmore, though I'd have to add some more buttons and buttonholes. A belt would go a long way to hide the ghosts of the pockets, but so would pocket flaps. There is probably sufficient velvet to make flaps and maybe gauntlet cuffs if the tartan facings get voted down.

Let the wild rumpus begin.

[MacLowlife]

Sorry, not Kenmore, which takes a jabot. I meant the SB style that buttons fairly high, but has lapels and takes a black tie and a belt, like Prince Charles wears sometimes. Perhaps it is a Balmoral? Anyway, what do the Smart people think?
Many many thanks

[be da veva]

I have a lovely green velvet Montrose that I have sadly outgrown and would dearly like to shrink back into. But then I would have to have my kilts re-modelled along with my other jackets so I think I will stay as I am!

Ahem...

Is that lovely green velvet Montrose available for some of us who hasn't outgrown it??