Equivalent to a tux

[Bugbear]

I vote for the jabot with black tie evening ware: high cut waistcoat with the open jackets.

Black Argyle with silk lapels in place of a tuxedo also sounds interesting.

[OC Richard]

I've played pipes at hundreds of weddings so I'm used to trying to blend in with tuxes.

It seems clear to me that the thing that blends in most seamlessly with men in black tuxes with black bow ties and black cummerbunds is a black Argyll jacket worn with a black bow tie and a black cummerbund.

Back in the 80's and 90's when I was doing up to 50 weddings a year I would bring a number of bow tie/cummerbund sets with me so as to match in with the wedding party. I had black, red, white, and teal (I did say the 80's!!).

Yes indeed I thought that the Argyll jacket matched in better than the PC. The PC was for white tie & tails events only, for me.

I also wore a Black Watch kilt because it didn't stand out as much as brighter tartans. Many gigging pipers today are wearing black-on-dark grey tartans and even all-black kilts for wedding and funeral use.

[JSFMACLJR]

I also wore a Black Watch kilt because it didn't stand out as much as brighter tartans. Many gigging pipers today are wearing black-on-dark grey tartans and even all-black kilts for wedding and funeral use.

Yes, and I've never understood why.

[auld argonian]

I guess that I'll always think that the Prince Charley looks a little too "military" for my personal taste...and the Montrose, Sheriffmuir, et al look even more "military". Again, it's personal taste but if it's up to me, I try to tone it down and "civilianize" the look as much as I can.

But how much of these outfits that are considered traditional are actually firmly based on authentic traditions and how much of them are based on those sort of compromises that have been made to make it easier on clothing manufacturers and formalwear rental agencies? I ask this question with all candor here and am interested in hearing from the experts. I base the question on a previous discussion where it was postulated that the custom of wearing of white or ivory kilt hose with formal attire was introduced by rental companies so that they only had to stock one color of hose thereby cutting their investment in inventory down.

As an example: epaulets. I understand that epaulets are based on a feature of earlier military uniforms that protected the shoulders from blows. An incoming sabre attack to the shoulders at a Burns Supper is probably pretty unlikely, though and probably has been fairly unlikely for the past hundred years or so. Why retain the epaulet? I can understand including it as part of a military uniform to pay homage to the history of the service but when did it get adopted as part of the outfit for civilians? Was there some point in history where it was fashionable for civilians to adopt aspects of military dress into their wardrobes and it just managed to stick and is kept because "that's the way it always was"?

I'm certainly not arguing with anybody's taste in clothing or sense of maintaining tradition but I'm just curious about how what I would see as the distinction between military and civilian clothing got blurred over the years.

Best

AA

[MacLowlife]

I believe 007 / Sir Hillary Bray is sporting a regulation, not a PC, but I can't tell from the photo. If I go into the other room and watch ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE I won't get anything done.

AA, I am no expert, but I believe two opposing forces are at work:
1) The great tendency by many men to distrust formality, especially "effete" formality, and specialized clothing in general. This leads to notched lapels on tuxedoes ( it looks like my regular suit, so I don't feel so uncomfortable) and to all-purpose jackets like the Argyle ( which frequently comes with interchangeable buttons for day/night). This is admirable, but it tends to blur things. It is aided by the manufacturers who would rather sell you one jacket than rent you two. And they can use their suit jacket patterns to make dinner suits. And it flies directly in the face of

2) the tendency of some men to prize specialized equipment and clothing in all forms. This leads to one-upmanship, ghillie brogues, kilt watches, jewelled dirks, etc.. A similar phenomenon is the trap-for-the-unwary of buying the fanciest example available, whether or not it is appropriate for your needs. Thus Prince Charlies are bought before argyles and black argyles before tweed ones, even though the wearer might really need a good standard day coat more than anything else. Consumers like flash and sparkle. Look at all of the fur-and-chrome sporrans on eBay and then try to find a simple brown leather one.

So what are we to do? I believe formal wear is anachronistic at best, as is the wearing of neckties, honestly. So, we may as well acknowledge that it is impractical and different. I love getting dressed up and I do it because it is unusual. It is intended to make the person feel special and to make the people around him feel it, too. I think a certain amount of leg-lifting is inherent among men and probably mankind when we gather. I don't know that it is better or worse to look like the man on the shortbread tin, as compared to a James Bond villain ( the Dr Evil look is tres moderne, non?). I would simply echo the man who said here or elsewhere to wear your clothes, don't let them wear you.

It would be nice to be able to rely on films for hints of what is really authentic, but a lot of them are theatrical and geared for novelty rather than "correctness". Old photographs are fine, so long as you want to dress like someone did at the time of the photo. I have seen the same picture of that other 007, the fat bald guy, wearing a jabot in broad daylight, citing it as either the epitome of style or the epitome of misguided dressing. As soon as we have Mr. Connery's reputation and adoring fan base, we can dress like him, let the deil take the rulebook, code, guidelines, and humble opinions. Until then, we can console ourselves with having his waistline and hairline, I guess.

[Galician]

Please forgive my sartorial ignorance, but which is more formal, white tie or black?

[Bugbear]

Someone was saying, a while back, that the epaulets were originally there to hold those shoulder things that officers wore; I don't know if they are still worn.

Ehh, what do I know.

[Bugbear]

Please forgive my sartorial ignorance, but which is more formal, white tie or black?

To the best of my knolege, white tie is more formal.

[Jock Scot]

To the best of my knolege, white tie is more formal.

Well done Ted, quite right.

[Bugbear]

Thank you, Jock.