Equivalent to a tux

[WClarkB]

For black tie events the Argyll, three button waistcoat formal shirt and black bow tie are the equivalent of a tuxedo. While you can dispense with the waistcoat for evening or formal wear in favour of a dirk belt, the waistcoat really does add to the formal look-- something the Highlanders of old would have appreciated.

OR

The Highland equivalent to the "Tuxedo" dinner jacket is what is called the Prince Charlie coatee, which is made similar to an ordinary tailcoat, but the tails are cut shorter, and are embellished with scalloped flaps as are the cuffs on each sleeve. The less formal Argyll jacket, which is often sold in black is more the equivalent of morning dress, since it does not have satin lapels, is worn with an ordinary necktie, and can be worn for business, or dressy social functions where black-tie is not required.

I am still in a quandry (btw the pics on the thread that Panache did for tis specific subject and that I failed to re-find when I wanted them, are gone); he came down on the side of the PC)

[JSFMACLJR]

The black Argyll jacket is not the equivalent of a tuxedo. It's equivalent is the type of jacket worn with "morning dress" (which may be either a stroller or a cutaway), which is typically worn with striped trousers a grey vest and a grey striped ascot or necktie.

The Prince Charlie coatee is the least formal of all the Highland eveningwear jackets, hence it being the equivalent of the dinner-jacket or Tuxedo.

Please don't be so quick to carve bold statements in stone such as "The black Argyll jacket is not the equivalent of a tuxedo."

One of my favourite "go-to" sources on Highland dress is MacKinnon of Dunakin's small book Tartans and Highland Dress. On page 78, Dunakin wrote:

"Yet another effective style is to have an ordinary day-pattern jacket and vest, with Highland cuffs, pocket flaps and shoulder straps, made up in black vicuna with silver buttons. This can be worn with a lace jabot or a bow tie, and it preserves the flow and dignity of the (Highland) dress. This has always been a popular style with youths but was not so often worn by adults till recently.
... One of the most attractive aspects of the dress is the very wide choice of styles,all equally "correct", although their desirability depends much on the eye of the beholder. The only thing that can be said about evening dress doublets and coatees is that ( except for men dancers in competitions ) they should not be worn as day wear."

There is ample evidence to show that what we call an "Argyll" jacket is perfectly at home as part of evening dress.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The black Argyll jacket is not the equivalent of a tuxedo. It's equivalent is the type of jacket worn with "morning dress" (which may be either a stroller or a cutaway), which is typically worn with striped trousers a grey vest and a grey striped ascot or necktie.

The Prince Charlie coatee is the least formal of all the Highland eveningwear jackets, hence it being the equivalent of the dinner-jacket or Tuxedo.

Gee, I'm sorry to disagree, but the dress (or black) Argyll is every bit the equivalent of a dinner jacket-- a quick look at the Fraser Ross catalog (c. 1950) gives the following:

Prince Charlie Coatee: popular for full dress and evening wear (illus. shows PC worn with white tie).

Doublet and Vest : an alternative style for full or evening dress wear (illus. shows a regulation doublet worn with black tie).

THE DRESS ARGYLL: for evening occasions (illus. shows the Argyll worn with white tie).

Silk facings on lapels (or the turn-backs on cuffs) are generally a matter of personal taste, in the same way that one might opt for a velvet jacket in lieu of the more conventional vicuna or less less expensive barathea, or choose to have notched, as opposed to peaked lapels.

The advantage of the Dress Argyll (that is one made from finely woven black cloth as opposed to heavy tweed) is that it can be worn in a variety of situations (including morning dress), simply by changing one's necktie and waistcoat.

(About Fraser Ross (Glasgow) Ltd: Having been in business for more than 50 years, and with premises located at 60 Ingram Street, Glasgow, as well as 7 Idol Lane in London, Fraser Ross were, at one time, arguably the largest suppliers of Highland dress and accessories in the UK, and quite possibly the world. While primarily made-to-measure Highland outfitters their goods were of exceptional quality; they offered, for example, five styles of dress hose-- check tops, tartan tops, full tartan hose, Argyll and diced hose, in addition to a range of sold coloured hose.)

[Squeaky McMurdo]

JSFMACLJR
Kilted Noble
Posts: 905


MacMillan of Rathdown
Kilted Legend
Posts: 2,349



vs.


The Deil's Chiel
Kilted Member
Posts: 32


Rank has effectively been pulled. An Argyl can indeed hold it's own next to a tux.



WClarkB, if you're still confused as to which to purchase or buy, may I suggest asking your spouse or significant other what their opinion is?


--Chelsea McMurdo--

[Lyle1]

I agree. My advice would be to look for pictures of the PC and the Argyle worn as formal wear and decide which one you think will best suite both the situation in which it will be worn and your own sense of style. Don't worry what other people think about your choice.


By the way, in another current thread on this forum, a native of Scotland states that men wear the PC there without much regard for the time of day. If the kilt police don't get them in Scotland, what do we have to fear in the USA?

[Jock Scot]

I'll concede that a black Argyll jacket with peaked satin lapels would be equivalent to a Tuxedo, but Argyll jackets for the most part are made with notched lapels covered in the same cloth as the rest of the jacket. So to really be on-par with a tuxedo, you would have to go the bespoke route and have one custom made. The problem then is that an Argyll jacket with peaked satin lapels is too dressy for anything other than eveningwear. For my money (and taste) this:

equals this:


Whereas this:

equals this:

To this Scot of very near three score and ten years under his belt, I have to agree with you. But I do have to conceed that a black silver buttoned argyll worn with a low cut waistcoat and black tie, is one of the better and more successful "modern" kilt trends.I am not sure how long this "new" trend has been in vogue, but I first saw the Argyll worn this way some ten years ago and well remember thinking to myself, "now why did I not think of that?"

[longhuntr74]

I was surfing the web and found this. I noticed an error on the regulation doublet pic (being that it's a PC, not a Reg Doublet)...but it's a good men's formal wear guide regardless.
http://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Scottish.htm

[WClarkB]

JSFMACLJR
Kilted Noble
Posts: 905


MacMillan of Rathdown
Kilted Legend
Posts: 2,349



vs.


The Deil's Chiel
Kilted Member
Posts: 32


Rank has effectively been pulled. An Argyl can indeed hold it's own next to a tux.



WClarkB, if you're still confused as to which to purchase or buy, may I suggest asking your spouse or significant other what their opinion is?


--Chelsea McMurdo--

I agree. My advice would be to look for pictures of the PC and the Argyle worn as formal wear and decide which one you think will best suite both the situation in which it will be worn and your own sense of style. Don't worry what other people think about your choice.


By the way, in another current thread on this forum, a native of Scotland states that men wear the PC there without much regard for the time of day. If the kilt police don't get them in Scotland, what do we have to fear in the USA?

Calling a halt to the proceedings before I'm accused of being a causa belli.

Gentlemen thank you one and all for your insights and advice; all of you have been gracious and generous enough to help. It is deeply appreciated.

now stop