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21st November 09, 06:03 AM
#41
Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR
You seem to forget that day sporrans, too, had metal cantles. The sporran worn by His Majesty in the photo is different from what you had in mind, but nonetheless is very traditional, with a solid pedigree.
The title of this thread is "history of the plain leather day sporran" and I have taken this to mean the plain leather day sporran, worn with tweed kilt jacket, at least from the 1930's to today in an unbroken continuum, which is a brown leather pocket with flap, usually bearing three tassels.
Pokes, 18th century leather sporrans with metal tops, sporrans like modern "evening" sporrans, animal mask sporrans, etc etc are interesting for sure but are different animals.
Of all the figures in The Highlanders of Scotland, all are wearing long hair sporrans or animal mask sporrans save for three: One man is wearing an antique original 18th century sporran and one is wearing a sporran much like the long hair sporrans but it happens to have short hair (worn by "an unknown Breadalbane man").
Only one has any real resemblance to either the modern evening wear sporran or modern day wear sporran. It's worn by Kenneth MacSwyde and is a smallish short-fur sporran with both a flat metal cantle and a fur flap.
Sticking metal cantles on leather day dress sporrans seems to be rather recent, and by definition could only happen after the day dress sporran per se had evolved.
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21st November 09, 09:56 AM
#42
Originally Posted by OC Richard
Yes that painting is very interesting in that is shows a sporran shaped exactly like the modern "day sporran".
But... when one is talking about the origin of a current thing, to me that means tracing its evolution through an unbroken series of intermediate forms back through to its first known appearance.
Having an isolated appearance of that sporran shape in the 18th century, when sporrans normally didn't look like that, doesn't to me establish an evolutionary relationship.
While I believe I do know which type of sporran you are talking about, I'm not sure I follow your logic here. These were hardly isolated appearances and sporrans normally did look like that (+/- metal cantle), as there are plenty of example up through the late 18th century, as we have seen on this thread alone. What you seem to object to is their absence in the prints you have from the 19th century. I take it that a picture of one or more in that time frame would fill that gap? I don't have one, but a friend of mine suggested a book or two he has that supposedly shows them. I'll see if/when I can take a look at that and scan some pics if they are representative.
I have run across a couple of pics of WWI examples previously. A quick search produced this one. The link has supportive documentation that this belonged to a member of the "Black Watch 73rd (Overseas) Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada), Canadian Expeditionary Force", enlisted 1915.
http://sattlers.org/mickey/culture/c...h/sporran.html
Ken
"The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE
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21st November 09, 10:35 AM
#43
OT but interesting nonetheless. A member of the A&SH during WWI wearing a canvas kit bag in sporran fashion.
Ken
"The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE
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21st November 09, 06:17 PM
#44
I have in my files this painting of Sporrans and Cantles of 1745, clearly showing a plain leather sporran with three tassels. I am afraid I do not know the source of the painting, bt it does indicate that the said style of sporran was worn wayyyy back!
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21st November 09, 06:39 PM
#45
Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR
I have in my files this painting of Sporrans and Cantles of 1745, clearly showing a plain leather sporran with three tassels. I am afraid I do not know the source of the painting, bt it does indicate that the said style of sporran was worn wayyyy back!
Might this be a plate from "The Book of the Club of the True Highlander"?
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21st November 09, 06:59 PM
#46
Originally Posted by The Deil's Chiel
I have a copy of Paisley's Highland Dress catalog (12th edition) from 1953 which illustrates various modes of Highland dress in color. Long horsehair sporrans are still sold in the boy's department alongside the plain leather and small silver-cantled fur variety we are more familiar with as evening sporrans worn today, but on the page for men's and youth's sporrans, the long horsehair sporrans are conspicuously absent...
...and yet they still feature in advertisements for Messrs SCOTT ADIE, LTD. in 1968 (see, for example, page 2, "The Scottish Clans and their Tartans", Johnson & Bacon, Ltd. Publishers). My own take on horsehair sporrans is that as the equine population of the UK dwindled there was a shift by sporran makers away from horsehair (which was becoming increasingly difficult to obtain) toward seal skin, which was more plentiful and (probably) easier to work.
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22nd November 09, 06:53 AM
#47
Thanks everyone for all the awsome images and info!
Where else but this forum could such research happen? It's great.
So to sum up, we have a photo from the 1920's, a WWI military example, and appearances in catalogues beginning in the 1930's, of the modern plain leather day wear sporran. In addition there's an 18th century painting showing what appears to be a sealskin sporran in similar shape, and an illustration in a "Celtic revival" book purporting to show an 1745 sporran which bears some resemblance. Any 19th century appearances?
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22nd November 09, 08:04 AM
#48
Originally Posted by The Deil's Chiel
may have been inspired by a desire to return to the older styles
I'm glad you brought this up, as I have been thinking that it is an important concept in fashion of any type and I doubt sporrans are any different. There's some razor to the effect that nothing is ever new in fashion, with the corollary in Western fashion that things repeat in 20-40 year cycles, or something to that effect.
I think that is one of the problems I was having with your statement, Richard, was that you were looking for a linear evolution unbroken to the present for these plain leather daywear sporrans. Wearing corrective lenses, I can just look (no pun intended) what has happened with eyeglass fashion throughout my life and see how many times what was old has become new again. I don't think wire-rimmed frames have ever disappeared since glasses were invented, but they certainly have been uncommon at times when plastics became a viable, economical option. Maybe not a fair comparison, but I hope you see my point.
Ken
"The best things written about the bagpipe are written on five lines of the great staff" - Pipe Major Donald MacLeod, MBE
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24th November 09, 01:14 AM
#49
The canvas bag worn sporran style by the Argyll is the carrying bag for the phenate-hexamine gas helmet first issued from late 1915 to 1917, when the small box respirator replaced it.
There’s a good WW1 photo of a group of 8th Argylls officers wearing their PH helmet carrying bags sporran-style. The early PH helmet comprised a cloth helmet made of standard issue grey/blue shirt cloth sewn into a bag shape, impregnated with anti-gas compound and a post-box oblong mica vision panel. The soldier put it over the head, tucked the excess into the collar. Breathing through the material was not easy ! It was replaced by the end of 1915 by an improved version having 2 x metal rimmed mica eyes-pieces and a chemical-filled tube with rubber flap valve at mouth level. The soldier put on the helmet as before and additionally put the inside end of the tube into his mouth and breathed in and out through that. In use, chemicals used to leech out of the tube and down the soldier’s throat.
BTW:- 2 x PH helmets were sometimes issued for major actions, in case of damage / loss. On 1st July 1916, first day of the Battle of the Somme, each assaulting soldier was issued 2 x PH helmets, plus Brodie steel helmet, small pack and ammo pouches, water-bottle, entrenching tool and helve, bayonet frog, 2 additional filled cloth ammo bandoliers, 2 Mills grenades (to be handed to grenadiers for use), a number of empty sandbags for strengthening captured trenches, a large set of barbed wire-clippers, either a pick-axe or shovel (for strengthening captured trenches) plus SMLE and bayonet. The whole thing weighed well over 80lbs. That is why the order that day was for the assaulting troops to walk across No-Man’s Land, men spaced at intervals and assault lines also spaced apart, instead of the usual Indian rush technique. It was anticipated that the artillery would have neutralized most German opposition and that the infantry would be safe enough walking with rifle at the port, behind the advancing friendly artillery barrage.
Oh dear.
Last edited by Lachlan09; 24th November 09 at 03:33 AM.
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