Origin and Use of "Dress" Tartans

[EagleJCS]

As has been alluded to by others, perhaps some of this boils down to a mis-interpretation of the word 'dress' somewhere along the line, wayy back when the mills were just starting to label these patterns?

dress = women's garment (skirt, arisaid, and/or similar/unbifurcated garments)

vs

dress = formal

I would posit that the term was intended to mean 'formal' when applied to tartan for male wearers. Due to the vagaries of the English language, this was misinterpreted at some point, which is how we come to the discussion we are having now.

Or, maybe I'm just barking up the wrong tree, in which case I'll retire from the discussion.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

... the women are taking over [Highland dancing] and the mills are now catering for them. Those new tartans with such colours as turquoise, cerise, raspberry, fushia, lavender, etc. are being introduced to entice the new dancers. The young and the 'hip' and the female.

This statement would seem to underscore the sentiment behind the OPs original statement that many "dress tartans" are really intended as womens wear.

[Dixiecat]

This statement would seem to underscore the sentiment behind the OPs original statement that many "dress tartans" are really intended as womens wear.

Unfortunately, you are misinterpreting not only my point, but also the OPs original statement. Which is:

I, personally, stay well clear of categories #2 and #3 above, since I think these tartans are designed for women's clothing. I think category #1 is fine for men's wear, although they are often very vibrant.

What he is saying is that anything with a white background is UNSUITABLE for a man.

What I am trying to point out and I apologise if I have clouded my point with my discussion of the NEW dance tartans, is that NOT all tartans with a white background are intended for womens wear ONLY. I can't believe you BOTH ignored not only HRH Prince Charles wearing Dress Stewart, but also two male dancers of a past era (i.e. long before Charles wore his in that pic) wearing dress tartans.

I certainly think that there are categories of dress tartans, but I think someone with a little more knowledge and less bias should be proposing those categories.

[davidlpope]

I was a little upset to have davidlpope lump every white dress tartan into one category and categorically say that every one of them was for women and seemingly belittle not only the tartans, but the people who wear them.

PM sent in hopes of an off-line reconciliation.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Unfortunately, you are misinterpreting not only my point, but also the OPs original statement. Which is:



What he is saying is that anything with a white background is UNSUITABLE for a man.

What I am trying to point out and I apologise if I have clouded my point with my discussion of the NEW dance tartans, is that NOT all tartans with a white background are intended for womens wear ONLY. I can't believe you BOTH ignored not only HRH Prince Charles wearing Dress Stewart, but also two male dancers of a past era (i.e. long before Charles wore his in that pic) wearing dress tartans.

I certainly think that there are categories of dress tartans, but I think someone with a little more knowledge and less bias should be proposing those categories.

PM sent.

[Lyle1]

From what I've read recently, the dress tartan was simply a variant of the "clan" tartan (as opposed to the chief's tartan) and was worn for dressy and "state occasions." If it was only, or primarily, worn for special occasions, I don't think the lighter colors would present a major soiling problem. I was looking at references from the late 1800's and early 1900's, and I did not see any reference to the dress tartan being a ladies' tartan. I did however, see several references to the head of a clan wearing the dress tartan for a special occasion, and elsewhere of the chief wearing his reserved tartan and the others in the clan wearing the dress tartan. It would be interesting if try to determine where the myth about the dress tartan being for ladies originated. From what I've read, at least 100 years ago, that attitude was not common.

[Phil]

From what I've read recently, the dress tartan was simply a variant of the "clan" tartan (as opposed to the chief's tartan) and was worn for dressy and "state occasions."

Exactly so. Nowadays we tend to just wear the one tartan for all occasions but the well-to-do in bygone years would have a kilt in the "dress" version of their tartan for formal evening occasions. I don't know where all this confusion about women's clothing comes from.

[davidlpope]

Beverly(Dixiecat) has requested that I post an off-line discussion we shared via PM here in this thread and I have agreed. Our hope is that it furthers civil and useful inquiry and discussion on this aspect of tartans. Once again, I apologize if I have offended anyone, in regards to my (now acknowledged as errant) understanding of who wears “Dancers’” tartans.

Since our discussion, I’ve tried to locate some useful historical examples of the use of “dress” tartans. What I’ve come across so far are two series of prints by Robert McIan and Kenneth MacLeay, available for viewing on the STA website at this link:

http://www.tartansauthority-shop.com...og/Prints.html

I acknowledge that these sources may have flaws, but I still think they can be useful as period examples.

Five of the McIan plates depict women: Lamond, MacNicol, Matheson, Sinclair, and Urquhart. Interestingly, of these five, three (Lamond, MacNicol, Sinclair) are depicted wearing a traditional clan tartan. Two (Matheson and Urquhart) are depicted in a light colored, striped?, belted garment that I interpret as an arisaid.

Two of the plates [Macpherson (posted earlier in this thread by Matt Newsome) and Menzies] depict what I interpret as “Dress” tartans. In my mind, these two tartans fit into my “category 1”, since they were not created by adding white to an existing clan tartan. The Dress Macpherson, even though it contains white, is not a modified version of the MacPherson clan tartan, in the way that Dress Stewart, Dress Campbell, or Dress Gordon are modified versions of their respective clan tartans. Likewise, red/white Menzies predates the red/green Menzies according to the Tartan Registry website, so it appears that the red/green version was a modification of the red/white version and not vice versa.

Two of the McLeay plates feature what I recognize as “Dress” tartans- again, Dress MacPherson and Dress Menzies.

So, I’m wondering if anyone here can help in locating the earliest depiction of the wear/use of “category 2” dress tartan (Dress Campbell, Dress Gordon, Dress Stewart, Dress MacDonald, etc.) that’s out there?

Cordially,

David

David:
Thanks for your clarification. I would certainly appreciate if you could post your comments to me onto the thread. I think your categories could be better explained using the reasoning below.

Also, since you didn't seem to be supporting your categories with anything other than your experience and personal feeligs, I went ahead and did some research into the topic.

For category #2 I couldn't find any supporting documentation to suggest that dress tartans were based on arisaids. I could suggest that some of these tartans were actually based more upon formal mens civilian and military dress uniforms. I'm not saying that some of these in #2 wouldn't be based on arisaids, but to assume that they all are is wrong.

The research I did steered clear of the dance 'fashion' tartans and tried to stick with clan or regional tartans, and only one of those tartans I looked at, was specifically introduced for dancers. (Dress Saskatchewan).

If we keep this discussion to the forum, I hope we can further define the categories you proposed.

Beverly

Beverly,

Thanks so much for your kind response. I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

Did you know that the Christina Young tartan is the official dress tartan of Clan Young? Did you know the Dress Stewart is an official clan tartan?

I had put these into my second category since they are derived from arisaids and are recognized (either through general use or by decision of a clan chief) as being connected to a clan or family, rather than originating as dance tartans. Sorry if I was unclear in explaining my rationale.

Did you know that Dress Nova Scotia is an official dress tartan?

I didn't know this, thanks for sharing the info. The NS government website only lists the original NS tartan as official and doesn't make mention of the dress version.

Your personal statement at the end just showed the bias in which you were viewing the types of tartans. The bias prevented you from looking at categories 2 and 3 seriously.

I'm sorry that my analysis appeared as bias and that I seemed to be giving short shrift to categories 2 and 3. My thinking is that from a historical perspective, category 2 tartans were designed as tartans specifically for women's arisaid or other types of female garments, despite their current use as a "formal" tartan for evening events. I tend to be traditional in my views of highland dress, so I, personally, wouldn't wear this type of tartan, personal preference. I'm sure that others do, so to each their own.

Your points regarding category 3 are very well-received. It's clear to me now that these "dance" tartans are worn by both men and women dancers, and ARE NOT designed for WOMEN'S attire since they are designed for DANCER'S attire. Thanks for clearing that up for me. My misconception was based on the fact that having attended approximately 20 highland games in North Carolina, I have never seen an adult male highland dance competitor. I've seen boys and adolescents, but the ones that I remember were wearing conventional clan tartans or category #2 tartans, like the gentlemen in the vintage highland dance photo you referenced (it's hard to say for sure because the photo is black and white, but I think the gentleman on the left is wearing Dress Stewart and the gentleman on the right is wearing Dress Campbell or Dress Gordon.) All the category #3 tartans that I saw were worn by women and girls. All that being said, since I'm not a highland dancer, though, I guess I still can't see myself wearing one of these category #3 tartans, once again, personal preference.

Thanks again for your willingness to discuss.

Cordially,

David

David:

I was upset about your original post, but I've calmed down and I stand by what I have said. You do need to be a little more educated regarding the tartans and the categories that you proposed. For instance, you say that the tartans in #3 have not been recognized by the clans as official setts. Did you know that the Christina Young tartan is the official dress tartan of Clan Young? Did you know the Dress Stewart is an official clan tartan? Did you know that Dress Nova Scotia is an official dress tartan? Those are just off the top of my head. Your personal statement at the end just showed the bias in which you were viewing the types of tartans. The bias prevented you from looking at categories 2 and 3 seriously.
I enjoy discussions such as the one you started and I'd love to keep this to the open forum. We can discuss and should continue to discuss these issues, as clearly as possible without garnering hurt feelings. I know you didn't intend to slight anyone in any way and I very much appreciate your pm.

Thanks for contacting me and I know we can continue a friendly discussion.

/beverly

Dixiecat,

I am sorry to have offended you, I did not mean to do so. Please forgive me. Can you help me understand what I wrote that was so offensive to you?

The point of my original post was that "Dress" tartans, to me, seem to really exist in three distinct categories [for lack of better titles- (1) bright, but probably orginated simply as "clan" tartans, not "dress", (2)those derived from Arisaids, where a clan tartan has white added to it, and (3) Dancer's], as outlined in my original post, and not lumped together.

I do not look down upon male Highland Dancers and I recognize that Highland Dance was originally a male activity designed to enhance martial prowess. I also recognize that a overwhelming majority of competitive dancing is now done by young women.

My final statement about which tartans I personally choose to wear was simply a statement of my personal views. I hope that on issues of personal predilection that we can agree to disagree.

Once again, I am sorry to have offended you. I've enjoyed the discussions I've had on XMarks. I don't want to do something that results in lessening some one else's enjoyment of the same.

Cordially,

David

[M. A. C. Newsome]

David,

I think a lot of what we are seeing has to do with the fact that tartan is not an exact science today, and was even less so in the nineteenth century. Categories such as "dress" and "hunting" etc. arose well after many tartans were already in use, and no doubt many of them were shoved into categories after the fact because of certain characteristics.

For example, the Menzies "dress" tartan you mention was certified by the chief of the clan in 1816 in the Highland Society of London collection as the clan tartan. Period. No "dress." I suspect it was labelled as "dress" erroneously at some point later on simply because it contained a lot of white. The "hunting" version of this tartan, which is red and green (or red and black) dates to 1893. I suspect that it was likely after alternate tartans were introduced for the clan (such as the hunting) that the white version came to be called "dress."

As for the dress tartans that are obviously variations of recognized clan tartans with more white added, I did a cursory search of the ITI for tartans with "dress" in the name, and the earliest of these I found seemed to come from the 1880s (Clans Originaux), which means they were in production at that time. Then there seems to be another influx of dress designs dating from 1930-50 (The MacGregor-Hastie collection), and many more introduced in the 60s and 80s. I suspect as time went on, there was a "Hey, why don't we have a dress tartan?" syndrome going on. :-)

It is interesting, also, to note that a lot of tartan designs may date to an earlier period, but the name "dress" being associated with them would seem more recent. For example, the Wallace dress tartan is documented as an unnamed sett in the Highland Society Collection (1816), but in the MacGregor-Hastie collection (from between 1930 and 1950, as I have said) it is labelled "Wallace Dress."

[Dixiecat]

In doing some internet research I found a little information regarding dress tartans. The information in the link below does mention the relationship to arisaid tartans, but also goes onto say that they are suitable for formal dress occasions.
http://www.britishcouncil.org/china-...esoftartan.htm

Other than the obvious creation of dress clan 'fashion' tartans for dancers in the last few years, the only reference I found for a specific dress tartan specifically introduced for highland dancers is Dress Saskatchewan.
http://www.ops.gov.sk.ca/Default.asp...0-c10ebc10bc0d

I also found a pipe band that wears a dress tartan.
www.standrewspipebandvt.org

I also found a few clans that recognise the dress variant of their tartan.
Ruxton: www.dhs.kyutech.ac.jp/~ruxton/ruxtartans.html
Innes: www.boydhouse.com
Fraser: www.fraserchief.co.uk/tartans.html