Origin and Use of "Dress" Tartans

[Dixiecat]

So to me the dress tartan for arisaig makes perfect sense, especially coming from Queen Vicky

People keep saying this, but no where have I actually found proof of this. I've found more proof of dress tartans being appropriate for white tie formal wear as actual fact, than any substance to the legend of Queen Victoria and white background tartans.

http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/alicky8.jpg

Here's a photo of Queen Victoria with her grandchildren. Her great-grandaughter Alix (later last tsarina of Russia) is wearing a tartan skirt. And, it's the same tartan as her brother (standing behind her) is wearing as a kilt. 1882.

http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vic41.jpg
A photo of a tartan dress worn by the then Princess Victoria (later Queen) in 1835. Not a dress tartan.

Dixiecat keeps pointing to the fact that she see's women in tartan clothing other than "dress," but I hardly think that this is proof that "dress" tartans were not originally meant for the arisaig.

Nope, you've not read my posts correctly. I only pointed this out ONCE, and it was only an observation of internet images. I never used it as a conclusion of proof that you are.

[Deil the Yin]

Apologies, Ms DixieCat if I misread your posts.

Nope, you've not read my posts correctly. I only pointed this out ONCE, and it was only an observation of internet images. I never used it as a conclusion of proof that you are.

[JSFMACLJR]

People keep saying this, but no where have I actually found proof of this. I've found more proof of dress tartans being appropriate for white tie formal wear as actual fact, than any substance to the legend of Queen Victoria and white background tartans.

http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/alicky8.jpg

Here's a photo of Queen Victoria with her grandchildren. Her great-grandaughter Alix (later last tsarina of Russia) is wearing a tartan skirt. And, it's the same tartan as her brother (standing behind her) is wearing as a kilt. 1882.

[.

They are wearing the Balmoral tartan.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

When people say that modern "dress" tartans come from the older arisaide fashions, it doesn't mean that only women can wear these tartans, nor does it mean that women should wear these tartans only.

All it means is that the style of white (or cream) based tartans comes from this tradition. And this is easy enough to see. The majority of surviving examples of arisaides, which was a women's dress, are white or cream based tartan designs. In fact, there are usually large blocks of white in the tartan.

These designs were the inspiration for most of the modern dress tartans. But in no way does this limit who may wear them.

I talked with a gentleman once who purchased a kilt in his clan's dress tartan, and then later read that it was supposedly for "ladies of the clan only." He asked me if he was wrong to wear the tartan.

"Well," I said, "do you like the tartan?"

"Yes," he said.

"Do you want to wear the tartan?"

"Yes."

"Then wear it!" I said. He knew it was a dress tartan, and he knew that some people might think it was for lady's wear only, but the fact remained that he liked it, he had a perfectly good kilt in it, and that was the tartan he wanted to wear.

[Pleater]

I find it rather amusing that when the arisaid was being worn way back in time, in Scotland, it was put down by churchmen and lawmakers as the dress of prostitutes, (presumably because it can cover the head and face) but these days a search on the internet can bring up an item where the arisaid is being put forward as a modest dress for moslem women (presumably because it can cover the head and face).

Personally I can't equate the arisaid, which could be striped with a few rows of colour at intervals on a natural white background, with a complex white background thread counted tartan devised hundreds of years later.

It would be only natural that the more complex arisaids would be preserved or drawn, but from the descriptions - they don't seem to be tartan as we know it now.

I can see that it would be a handy justification, should any be required, but once dyes became cheap such things as white stockings and light clothing for best, the white shirt, the white wedding dress were all the thing to have.

The concept of a dress tartan being for women's wear because something like it it was used for a woman's garment hundreds of years ago is not a strong argument - if acceptable you could equally argue that petticoats are a man's garment because the diarist Samuel Peyps remarks on the hilarious accident of someone, when dressing, putting both legs into the same side of his petticoat britches, and going about all day without realising.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[Morris at Heathfield]

I'm glad somebody started this thread, as it's something I've given some thought to lately. I have my own opinion on the subject, but I don't think the issue can be resolved without a bit of historical sleuthing. I'm not convinced it can be resolved, even with a bit of historical sleuthing. All I'll say is that the standard Hannay tartan, reputedly worn by a male of the name sometime between 1788 and 1844, is a primarily white tartan.

By the way, would the shepherd's check/Northumberland tartan be considered a dress tartan?

[figheadair]

My understanding was that after PRoscription was repealed, in subsequent centuries all things Scottish became de rigeur, at least in part due to Sir Walter Scott. Cannot remember which queen, but one of them was supposedly making a tour of Scotland. Since red was a color rarely worn by proper women, becasue it was associated with prostitutes, and becasue many tartans had a base color of Red, dress tartans were devised by replacing most of the red in a tartan with white (a color of feminine purity) so the women could wear tartan and remain "proper" from a color dress standpoint. Not sure how true any of that is but that is the story I have heard.

jeff

Where on earth did the red = prostitutes come from? It certainly has no historical basis so far as tartan is concerned. There are some very fine portraits of highland ladies wearing red tartans - Flora MacDonald & Helen Murray of Ochtertyre are but two. Historically speaking red was an expensive colour to produce, most commonly from imported cochineal, and therefore not everyone could afford it irrespective of their gender. This may explain why in the C18th many of the chiefs, gentry etc are depicted in red based setts - they are making a soical statement.

Interestingly, whilst it has been claimed that dress setts are based on womens arisaid patterns no such garment survivies so far as I'm aware howver there are a number of domestic blanket patterns still extant and this may have been the source of the story/tradition.

[McClef]

Just to point out that Alix was Victoria's granddaughter not great grandaughter.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Interestingly, whilst it has been claimed that dress setts are based on womens arisaid patterns no such garment survivies so far as I'm aware howver there are a number of domestic blanket patterns still extant and this may have been the source of the story/tradition.

The Christina Young arisaid c. 1726, is the prime example, and has already been mentioned in this thread.

[figheadair]

The Christina Young arisaid c. 1726, is the prime example, and has already been mentioned in this thread.

Absolutely. I doubt very much that it was ever other than a domestic blanket as opposed to a woman's garment - no reason to initial and date the latter, not to mention the size of the thing or the family tradition of it's use.