Origin and Use of "Dress" Tartans

[PEEDYC]

I would find it extremely interesting to know three things: (1) how many "dress tartans" are there; (2) from whence do these date; (3) how many have "official standing" within the clan?

Can someone please enlighten me?

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/qre...g=dress&Page=1
Try this link for a start. It is the Scottish Register of Tartans. It may not help you though if you read the post (49) by MacLowlife re the Campbell tartans. There are Five Campbell (Argyle) tartans registered and Campbell of Loch Awe as well which the Clan Chief does not regognise according to that artice. No wonder people are confused over rights to wear tartans and what is a true tartan.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Absolutely. I doubt very much that it was ever other than a domestic blanket as opposed to a woman's garment - no reason to initial and date the latter, not to mention the size of the thing or the family tradition of it's use.

But don't forget that the arisaide, like it's male counterpart, the belted plaid, was often used as a blanket for bedding when in the home.

[figheadair]

But don't forget that the arisaide, like it's male counterpart, the belted plaid, was often used as a blanket for bedding when in the home.

Matt,

I'm not convinced that that was the general way the belted plaid/arisaid was employed when not worn. Bottom line, where's the evidence?

[Deil the Yin]

Matt,

I'm not convinced that that was the general way the belted plaid/arisaid was employed when not worn. Bottom line, where's the evidence?

It seems rather disrespectful (and quite irritating IMO) that you should so off-handedly dismiss the advice of one as schooled in Highland dress and its history as Mr Newsome. I realise this may not have been your intent, so given our rather one-dimensional communication format here, may I suggest putting forward your own "proof" for being unconvinced?

Bottom line, put your money where your mouth is...

Regards,
Wesley

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Matt,

I'm not convinced that that was the general way the belted plaid/arisaid was employed when not worn. Bottom line, where's the evidence?

While awaiting Mr. Newsome's erudite reply, I'd like to know what other uses you feel the plaid/arisaid might have been put to? Given the rustic nature of a Highlander's house, I can't quite see them being used for much else, other than blankets.

[Pleater]

When feeling under the weather recently, after the 'flu' I found that my store of elderly single size wool blankets with lines and bands of colour in the weft were exactly the right size for wearing as an arisaid.

Given that woollen items folded up and stored away were/are quite likely to be attacked by moths, mice or other pests, (I've lost precious things that way) it would be sensible to use an arisaid as a bedcover. The agitation in use, the occasional shaking and airing would be the way to keep anything woollen in good condition in a less than ideal environment.

Until moth proofing was perfected it must have been very difficult to store anything woollen. It is still difficult for women who spin their own yarn from fleeces to keep their houses moth free, even with modern insecticides and storage bags.

My father's greatcoat was laid under the eiderdown on my parents' bed for years.

Wool 'tapestries' and samplers used to be mounted on card impregnated with arsenic, a warning was printed on the card for future restorers, and a similar tissue paper was supplied quite freely for storing fur collars, hats and gloves through the summer months. It had a pattern of skull and crossbones, in green.

Also from knitting history - initialling and dating items was quite common, jerseys and petticoats with the owners initials knitted in survive, initials and dates in the patterns on hats and gloves are found in many collections without even seeking them out. The 'folklore' of a gansey pattern helping to identify a drowned fisherman I am sure comes more from the garment having his initials knitted in than any particular knitting pattern. It is because people don't know the details of making personal garments any more that errors and assumptions are made.

There have always been thieves around, and it was only sensible to identify clothing.

Rather than having to find evidence for an arisaid being used as a blanket, I think that it would be more necessary to prove that it was not the done thing, and likewise the initialling and dating, simply because it would be contrary to normal practise and good house keeping.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[figheadair]

It seems rather disrespectful (and quite irritating IMO) that you should so off-handedly dismiss the advice of one as schooled in Highland dress and its history as Mr Newsome. I realise this may not have been your intent, so given our rather one-dimensional communication format here, may I suggest putting forward your own "proof" for being unconvinced?

Bottom line, put your money where your mouth is...

Regards,
Wesley

Wesley,

I appear, inadvertently, to have offended one or two on the forum which was not my intention. As you say, it's a rather one-dimensional form of communication. I am new to this forum although not to the subject - I've been trying to edit my profile without success but if I manage then it might put my comments in perspective. Is it me or is the site very slow to load? Other forums I subscribe to are so much quicker.

Having been involved in tartan research for over 30 years I prefer to work on fact wherever possible and as with any research the lack of contrary evidence does not necessarily make something a fact. In looking at early (pre-1800) tartan and dress we are doing so from over 200 years away to a time from which relatively little written or pictorial evidence survives, certainly pre-c1760, and almost no artefacts given the number of plaids that must have existed at the time. Whilst those of us that own a plaid today might use it as a bedspread etc when not worn that's because we are fortunate to own more than one set of clothes and thus we can. We just simply don't know how the poor highlander managed their life in sufficient detail to say.

I know of two extant C18th plaids that I can fairly confidently say were solely for domestic use and were not designed for wear/were never worn: the Christina Young plaid and one in Nova Scotia. This is based on their technical structure, design & construction. There are a number of plaids that now adorn beds in castles and country houses but we have no idea when they were so 'utilised'. We clearly need to differentiate between the use by gentry and the common clansman. What I was questioning in my post was implication that it is a fact that belted plaids and arisaids were used routinely for bed covers etc., and whilst we may assume that to be the case is there evidence to support such an assumption? I know of none but if there is then a good starting point to find it would be in the writings of the likes of Martin Martin or Burt’s Letters.

Peter

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Peter,

There is a sixteenth century referece to men in the Highlands sleeping in their plaids, so we know they were, at least sometimes, used for this purpose. Granted, this was before the fashion arose of wearing plaids belted, but the principle would be the same.

It seems to me that I have read an eighteenth century reference to arisaides being used as bedcovers, but I'll be darned if I can find it now. It may need some digging.

However, I fail to see how having one's initials and the year embroidered on the fabric could be used to prove or disprove its use either as a garment or as a bedcover. The fact is that garments like these (arisaids, belted plaids) are essentially untailored lengths of cloth, and as such can be rather hard to identify. Was it worn as an outer covering? Was it used as a blanket? Was it maybe used as a garment and then relegated to the bed at some point? Who is to say?

We generally can identify the use and purpose of clothing by looking at the tailoring and modifications. We can't really do this with untailored items such as these. And with the women's arisaid especially, there is very little evidence to go on other than a few scant written descriptions and a handfull of contemporary illustrations.

If you don't think that the Christina Young arisaid "fits the bill" in terms of the evidence, why not share your specific thoughts with us?

[davidlpope]

It seems rather disrespectful (and quite irritating IMO) that you should so off-handedly dismiss the advice of one as schooled in Highland dress and its history as Mr Newsome. I realise this may not have been your intent, so given our rather one-dimensional communication format here, may I suggest putting forward your own "proof" for being unconvinced?

Bottom line, put your money where your mouth is...

Regards,
Wesley

Peter,

Just a thought, but it might be helpful to write an introductory post in the "welcome" section of the site. As you mention, one of the difficulties of internet communication is that it is hard to assess one's insight/experience without a short bio, etc. The internet lends itself to self-appointed experts, so I hope you can understand the skepticism in some of the earlier posts, particularly as they relate to Matt Newsome, who's been a great source of knowledge and a strong champion for tartan and the kilt to those of us on this side of the Atlantic.

In this case, I'm certain that other posters here had no idea of your extensive experience regarding tartan history and design. On the other hand, I think that you'll find plenty of admiration for the results of your labors, as evidenced by the Carolina Tartan thread linked below.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/c...light=carolina

Welcome to XMarkstheScot. I look forward to reading your posts and seeing the scholarly debate!

Cordially,

David

[figheadair]

Peter,

There is a sixteenth century referece to men in the Highlands sleeping in their plaids, so we know they were, at least sometimes, used for this purpose. Granted, this was before the fashion arose of wearing plaids belted, but the principle would be the same.

It seems to me that I have read an eighteenth century reference to arisaides being used as bedcovers, but I'll be darned if I can find it now. It may need some digging.

However, I fail to see how having one's initials and the year embroidered on the fabric could be used to prove or disprove its use either as a garment or as a bedcover. The fact is that garments like these (arisaids, belted plaids) are essentially untailored lengths of cloth, and as such can be rather hard to identify. Was it worn as an outer covering? Was it used as a blanket? Was it maybe used as a garment and then relegated to the bed at some point? Who is to say?

We generally can identify the use and purpose of clothing by looking at the tailoring and modifications. We can't really do this with untailored items such as these. And with the women's arisaid especially, there is very little evidence to go on other than a few scant written descriptions and a handfull of contemporary illustrations.

If you don't think that the Christina Young arisaid "fits the bill" in terms of the evidence, why not share your specific thoughts with us?

Matt,

Peter,

There is a sixteenth century referece to men in the Highlands sleeping in their plaids, so we know they were, at least sometimes, used for this purpose. Granted, this was before the fashion arose of wearing plaids belted, but the principle would be the same.

Oh yes, familiar with that but it referred, assuming that we are talking about the same thing, to them sleeping outside. I’ve certainly slept in my clothes before now when out camping but that’s not the same as using them for bed covers.

Peter,

It seems to me that I have read an eighteenth century reference to arisaides being used as bedcovers, but I'll be darned if I can find it now. It may need some digging.

It would be very interesting to see this if you can find it. I don’t remember seeing it – McClintock perhaps?

[QUOTE=M. A. C. Newsome;839142]Peter,


So far as the Christina Young plaid is concerned it's been a long time since I've had my hands on the original and to do justice to this discussion I would like to re-examine it before I quote warp widths, epis, dimentions etc. Hopefully I'll get to do that at the end of the month when I'm home.

Peter