Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[Nighthawk]

You know... I like this idea. I myself prefer to wear my Colorado state tartan over my clan tartan. I am of MacLeod blood, and take pride in that. However, I am a native to the Rocky Mountains- the Highlands of North America. I also take considerable pride in that. So- I have to ask myself- what's more important to me- distant connections to a clan system that I didn't grow up in, or my home? For me, it's home. Plain and simple.

[Geoff Withnell]

While I have a bit of Scots and Irish blood (and sometimes a bit of Scotch or Irish in my blood), I am primarily of Welsh heritage. I don't have any of the "Welsh" tartans, since I have no real connection to any particular location in Wales, nor to any family which has a tartan. I am working with my nephew to come up with a Withnell Family tartan. We plan to get enough run off for around 10 kilts when we are satisfied with the design. I have a number of kilts at present. I have my best kilt a 16 0z box pleat in Leatherneck (when someone asks my clan, I reply "USMC!"). A less expensive Leatherneck in acrylic for knocking around, a number of fashion type tartans, some solid color contempories and and inexpensive Black Watch. I have some regimental weight Black Watch material, some of which will be my second box pleat kilt. With my own military association, I feel a certain affinity with the Black Watch tartan.

What's the point of all this? Well, while I wear a kilt for various reasons, including comfort and appearance, I am very aware when kilted of the associations with Scottish history. I don't think I would be comfortable in a clan tartan with which I had no connection. I hope that the kilt will become a part of general Celtic heritage, with the clan tartans remaining distinctively Scottish.

How do I fee about non-Celts in kilts? Go for it! As long as a certain level of respect is observed.

Just my two cents worth.

Geoff Withnell

[Red Stag]

I have my mother's last name; it is Carty, and it has no tartan. As far as I can tell my surname used to have a "Mc" in front of it; there is no McCarty tartan. I have read that the McCarty used to be McCarthy. There is a McCarthy tartan designed pre-2000 by unknown. Can I wear that tartan? Who the heck would I ask? Should I design my own tartan for my variation of the surname? What about DNA deciding who wears a family tartan? I can tell you now that there are surname projects at Family Tree DNA that have people of the same surname but that are in different haplogroups thus suggesting that they are not related in a genealogical time frame (within 1000 years). Obviously my surname doesn't match my DNA. My haplotype is similar to people in Frisia. I'll be darned if I knew who the Frisian was in the family. I can't trace my paternal side back farther than my grandfather and we thought that he was full-blooded Indian(Mohawk/Ojibwe mix). Traditional paper genealogy can be wrong but some people will never know because they won't do a DNA test. People don't want to find out that they may be the milk man's baby; some people even get upset if it happened 150 years ago. Some current Celtic people may be the descendants of Norse or Frisian invaders and not know it. Do they give up their tartans if a DNA test prooves they aren't truly of a particular surname? Perhaps I should create the first DNA haplotype tartan. Only people with a haplotype similar to mine, regardless of surname, shall be allowed to wear it. What do ya think?

[joecool]

Excellent thread! I suppose my question is, "Will Scots still be wearing their clan tartans 100 years in the future? What about 200 years? 300 years?" The interesting thing about cultures is their propensity to change through time. Each new generation takes a little bit of the old and mixes it with the new. Many people choose to wear a tartan kilt to honor a connection that they have somewhere in their ancestry. I became interested in the kilt because of my late grandfather whose mother was Scottish. Obviously I am not a Scot, I am an American, so my dilemma becomes which tartan do I want to wear? I have several tartan kilts (all of them are universal type tartans,) but what clan tartan should I wear? For me, the answer is simple. My clan is all of my kilted brothers and sisters here on this forum, so my tartan is the XMTS tartan. As soon as I can afford it, I will purchase a kilt in this tartan to proudly display my "clan" affiliation.
So yes Jock, I think you are right that new tartans will be worn by the new generations. New non-Scottish "clans" are formed every day, and I am certain that there will always be kilts made out of those tartans for people to show their affiliation!

[HarborSpringsPiper]

Thought provoking, Jock and thank you for that. As I've shared before, I have no Scots heritage at all. Having played the pipes since I was a teen, decades ago, I have nonetheless been tied with the community. My initial tie with a Clan in this regard has been the reason I chose my kilt in that tartan. Subsequently I also have a kilt in the universal Black Watch tartan but still take pride in wearing the MacRae tartan of my orientation. I can't see that I have erred in my thinking and practice but wonder by your comments if you and other Scots think differently?

[SteveB]

I am an American with a very thin genealogical link to Scotland. I have followed that thin trail to a Scottish "clan". We no longer have the historically correct clan system in operation. Today we belong to "clan associations". I have always had a kilt in the MacNeil tartan. My family impressed on me the heritage of many years ago. When I wear the tartan kilt, it is worn with respect to the traditions as expected by our current understanding of traditions. I thank Jock Scot, Phil, MoR, Cajun Scot, etc. for their opinions and guidance.

I take pride in presenting myself neatly and properly while kilted.. On this side of the puddle, wearing a kilt makes you get noticed. Just as we do not have a forum for those who wear trousers, I doubt anyone while wearing trousers has had someone in a kilt walk up to them and ask "The Question".

The future of kilt wearing? It has a great future ahead of it. The popularity of the AK, UK, and other garments that only share a thin resemblance of being a kilt in that the "pleats" are in the rear and there are some semblance of two aprons in the front. They are not traditional, but our traditionalists should welcome them, as for many it is the start of kilt wearing that will in the long run provide a venue to continue the traditions of which we are proud. Just as the great kilt is not the traditional kilt of today, and the small kilt holds the role, I am sure that the kilt will evolve further and continue to have a great showing in the World of tomorrow.

I wear the kilt to church and teach 6 and 7 year old children. The parents want me to continue teaching kilted, as it shows the children that one does not need to march to the drummer in the first band, but may march to the drummer in their own band. It is OK to be dressed differently from others, and to be proud of it. The children are encouraged to seek out their own answers in life, not just what is in the book in front of them.

This is for this side of the puddle only. I believe that the Scot population will continue to regard the kilted kit as primarily the national attire of Scotland, for those occasions when one should be seen in it. Think how often one goes to work on the bus in a Tuxedo. The kilt is seen by many as the equivalent in Scotland. The Tux is not going away any time soon and neither is the Kilt.

My wearing of the kilt is to honour my family roots, be they very thin and distant, to the land of Alba. It is a small part of what makes me the person that I am.

Slainte

[Ancienne Alliance]

Very well, I am French. Traditionally, The Culloden Tartan is associated to the French for they were present in this battle as allies. So is Black Stuart for the same reason.

I do have a Culloden Tartan kilt and my dear wife and daughters wear the Black Stuart. Fine !
Having Breton and Norman blood (lots of it!) I could wear one of these tartans.

So I could leave it to my Scottish neighbours to wear the clan tartan to which I am linked , not wear them any more and concentrate on the “French” ones.

But I will never do that . Never.

Why ?

Because I wear my clan tartan partly as a therapy to solve the problems I have with my dad, and similar other personal reasons I will not disclose in public. My family story (and heritage) carries a lot of sorrow.

Stopping this healing process by not wearing my family tartan would simply put an end to my kilt wearing all together, amongst other things.

Now I wouldn't want to deprive you of all these lovely kilted photos some of you seem to appreciate...


Best,

Robert

[MartinGrenoble]

Although the word "heritage" crops up so often on this forum, I have some doubts about the validity of the associated arguments. Perhaps that is my sheer ignorance -- I cannot remember hearing the word in my early life. In any case, for me one's character/personality is a product of the culture/education one was brought up in, and is not dependent on genes ("blood", as many of you have been saying). My upbringing was in southern England, and my personal development in French-speaking countries. Whatever genes I may have, determined the colour of my hair and the size of my feet, not the food I eat, the languages I speak, the books I read, or the clothes I wear.

Someone has already pointed out that kilts and tartans are two different things, and it is the latter that are associated today with particular Scottish clans (or regions, associations, regiments ...) not kilts. It is easy enough to buy and wear a masculine tie to show off one's connections and affiliations. One need not fork out hundreds of euros and acquire several metres of heavy, pleated worsted wool (not to mentions sporrans etc) -- and run the risk of being thought an oddity! Unless, of course, one wants to be comfortable/different/ostentatious ...
Many men (those few that wear anything round their necks) have tartan ties, but as far as I know there are no more tie forums than there are trouser forums.

I am quite convinced that the desire to be unbifurcated and comfortable comes before the expression of a desire to be Scottish. But because skirt-wearing is a sign of an unbalanced mind for 99,9% of the western population, we have to look for some excuse to be skirted. We could evoke medical or anatomical needs, but it is far easier to refer to Celtic forebears.

I would not dispute that some people are genuinely interested in discovering their family history, but I do wonder how many really became interested in skirted garments only after discovering some Celtic connexion. Did they not look for their connexion because they found kilts attractive?

To return to the original topic:
Uniforms are for the military, imposed from above. Although many young people like to look alike (in black or in jeans & t-shirt), why should any adult want to restrict himself to one colour? Would you always buy and wear the same shirt or pullover? I for one have no wish whatsoe"ver to be in uniform and part of the herd.

My first kilt was a Gordon (chosen by and for the family -- though without any reference to "heritage"!). When it needed replacing, I had a hankering for change and went for a Ross hunting, for one reason only -- it is a beautiful pattern.

Martin

[MartinGrenoble]

To answer Jockscot's question:
> Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

Some already do, but why should they limit themselves to one tartan?
There are French tartans, for example, but none of them are attractive enough to make me want to pay out the high price being asked.

There are some tartans so garish that I would not be seen dead in one (as they say). can you imagine being obliged to wear nothing but loud McWhatsisname all you life? Or having the choice of that or (gasp!) trousers?

Would Jockscot approve of the wearing of plain tartan-less kilts?

Martin

[Jock Scot]

To answer Jockscot's question:
> Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

Some already do, but why should they limit themselves to one tartan?
There are French tartans, for example, but none of them are attractive enough to make me want to pay out the high price being asked.

There are some tartans so garish that I would not be seen dead in one (as they say). can you imagine being obliged to wear nothing but loud McWhatsisname all you life? Or having the choice of that or (gasp!) trousers?

Would Jockscot approve of the wearing of plain tartan-less kilts?

Martin

It is not for me to approve, or, disapprove of wearing "plain tartan-less kilts". My choice would be, that I would not wear one, others are at liberty to make their own choice.