Help with Graham Kilts, sporran and silver dress buttons

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

HAR,

Welcome. This is a fascinating thread. While I expect your friend may be correct about the age of the breeches, I am sure you recognize the handicap faced when trying to evaluate items such as yours via photographs. And, while I am sure you would never dream of such a thing, unscrupulous people have been known to marry up distinguished documents with run-of-the-mill items and even to forge the documents. I sincerely do not believe you have anything like that in mind and I do not think your friend would be quite so dismissive of X Marks members' knowledge and expertise face to face. He is working with better information than most of us, but I am sure he would be polite and tactful just as you have been.



MacLL

THESE BREECHES ARE CURRENTLY FOR SALE ON EBAY FOR $2,950 AND ARE ARE LOCATED IN COUNTY CORK, REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

I wonder if that may have prompted the comments by Mr. Rance's friend?

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Hi, yes I did put the breeches on ebay and no she was not influenced by the ridiculously high amount I put on them. I state in the listing that the reserve is high I do not know that value pending further research:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...STRK:MESELX:IT

As was previously suggested by MacMillan of Rathdown, this is just a fishing trip to see if there is any interest, which there has been. The items do have a good provenance and the family sold Lord Lynedoch's uniforms and other things to the Scottish National Museum and Scottish National Library a few years ago for several hundred thousand pounds. Sadly because this was divided by three and then by seven as I have six brothers and sisters, I didn't receive a fortune but still a welcome windfall. This is some reflection of the importance of Lynedoch in Scottish military and political history. His correspondence with Viscount Melbourne then PM, written shortly before the coronation of Queen Victoria, which he kept discretely in an 18th century (yes!) silk purse, concerns the grant of a higher patent of peerage on behalf of his heirs and is here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

P.s. I live in beautiful West Cork and that's why the breeches are here!

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

P.s. I live in beautiful West Cork and that's why the breeches are here!

For those interested, here is a link to a diagram of breeches from 1775 made to the same pattern mentioned by my textiles historian friend:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

For those interested in 18th/19th century clothing and the changes that took place in construction and who may have been following this thread, here is the latest offering from my knowledgeable period clothing friend:

"Your forum contributor is of course right about many things he has said and indeed at auction in the UK antique/vintage clothing is outrageously underpriced in my opinion. I have to say that he is wrong about his definition of bespoke and hand tailored - these do not mean entirely hand sewn. All of the clothes I make, whether they be modern or historical are hand made, almost everything I do is bespoke, however unless specified by the client almost everything is machine sewn and hand finished. It is true that you can specify a fall front on a paid of breeches or trousers even today and there is an increased likelihood in the future of confusion of date of clothing with the more discerning re-enactor having his or her reproduction clothes hand sewn using authentically produced and dyed cloth. However, most of the black silk worn by these more modern people wearing their bespoke clothing will be dyed with synthetic dyes, your silk breeches are most likely to have been dyed with natural dyestuffs. Something that may possibly not be able to discovered without testing to destruction at least a part of the fabric.

I have had the opportunity to examine very closely (through making alterations) the construction techniques of the modern dress uniform red coats still being worn by the British forces. There is a huge amount of hand work on these garments, however the main seams are machined, why wouldn't they be? Of course 'Bishops, Deans, and Arch-deacons in the Church of England; the Heralds in England, Scotland, and Ireland; any number of Judges and those lawyers who have "taken silk", ie: are Queen's Counselors; liveried servants; etc.' could have their bespoke clothing hand sewn but generally their garments are machine sewn and hand finished - that is part of the definition of bespoke.

I do take offense at the title he has given me of 'theatrical costumer', I do not make costume for theatre. I reproduce, as accurately as possible given budget and material constraints, historical clothing, i.e. clothes designed to be worn in the way clothes used to be worn, not costume for a couple of hours performance and rigorous modern cleaning processes. If I am being accused of jumping to conclusions based on photographs, something which I have been very careful not to do if you read thoroughly the opinions I have given, he, equally, has been very quick to try to debunk any stated opinion with equally little evidence. You do at least have information relating to the estate they have come from and dates that concur. I should get off my soap box now...

Back the the 'velcro' I realised it wasn't the actual product from what you said. You're description of the product makes me think it is made in a similar way to velvet and this is probably the best piece of the breeches to date the garment. You're form contributor has conveniently completely neglected the buttons in his arguments... Even if the breeches were more recently manufactured than the 18th C they would undoubtedly have used modern equivalents for the buttons. Late Victorian covered buttons are constructed very differently from these and the use of bone buttons is also improbable in the 20th C and I feel sure that if made later than the mid 19th C the main seams of the breeches at the very least would probably have been machine sewn. I'm slipping back onto the soap box and I have commissions of bespoke livery coats for 15th C re-enactors to do, not to mention some corsets and an 18th C style mantua and petticoat. I always try to back up my information with primary sources wherever possible... (something theatrical costumers do not generally do!)."

[jgorley]

Just a friendly note, there is no need to provide argumentative information here. You asked for help and help was offered. Posting the arguments of your friend won't benefit your request. It most likely will leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth and people will be less likely to offer up information. If the garments are heirlooms, personally I would keep them no matter the value. It is a family respect issue. If your uncle wants to keep them in the family, I say give them to him. Again, it is a family respect issue. Just my 2 bits, take it or leave it.
James