traditional vs. classic

[CMcG]

I have something else up my sleeve that I am eager to show, but not just yet...

MacLowlife, do tell?

[Jock Scot]

This thread has got me thinking and some how I think things are made far too complicated these days. M o R gives a fine example of simplicity with his Oban story! I am not sure all the labels are necessary, in some ways it shows insecurity, or maybe a lack of confidence to be wearing something that you can't put a label on, or compartmentalise.This is a very modern way of doing things and whilst many are strongly objecting about "conforming", in fact, that is just what they are doing!

To my mind there is little difference between "traditional" and "classic" kilt attire. Don't forget in the UK, two hundred years is hardly regarded as old.There is a most definitely a "modern" and certainly a "historical" slant on kilt attire such as a great kilt , which is only seen(rarely thank goodness) being worn in this part of the world by the theatrical crowd or a tourist.

[CMcG]

Jock Scot, pithy and valid points you have. Apologies if I have overcomplicated this.

I shall endeavor to borrow your terminology and rephrase my question. If in the realm of traditional/classic Highland apparel there is a continuum ranging from historical to modern, where is the conceptual division?

Examples are welcome but I think I'm trying to elicit more of a guiding principle... as a young, North-American man, I lean towards what seems modern and away from what seems historical. Nevertheless, I have great respect for tradition and am not interested in modernity stripped of its roots. I think my parallel question of how people have formed their sense of style is intended to be supportive to this larger question.

[davidlpope]

If in the realm of traditional/classic Highland apparel there is a continuum ranging from historical to modern, where is the conceptual division?

Examples are welcome but I think I'm trying to elicit more of a guiding principle... as a young, North-American man, I lean towards what seems modern and away from what seems historical.

I'm not sure that I can define it, but I think I can recognize it when I see it (apologies to Justice Stewart).


Classic Traditional Highland Daywear:



Modern Traditional Highland Daywear:



Modern Traditional Highland Evening Wear on left/ Classic Traditional Highland Evening Wear on right




To summarize:

Classic traditional highland dress = what most chiefs wear.

daywear: plain tweed jackets/waistcoats, jacobite cantle/ animal maks sporran, lovat blue, bottle green, claret hose
evening wear: Montrose/regulation, etc. doublets, diced or Argyll hose, hair sporrans, buckle brogues



Modern traditional highland dress = what competing pipers wear/ what is readily available from retailers.

daywear: black Argyll with white metal buttons, white or black hose, black leather sporran, ghillie brogues
evening wear: Prince Charlie, white or black hose, common rectangular white metal buckle kilt belt, fuzzy rabbit fur sporran with common white metal cantle, ghillie brogues

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

With reference only to the jacket: This is almost identical to the jacket worn by Loudon MacQueen Doulglas in the photograph opposite page 36 in book THE KILT, A Manual of Scottish National Dress, published in 1914.

If the jacket was made from tweed this would be 100% correct for day wear; made from a finer wool or barathea (as in the photo) it is still correct for day way and perfect for a guest at a wedding, although, perhaps, a trifle too formal for most other outings.

Although the number of button on the front may vary from one to three, the basic Argyll jacket still remains an all-time classic.

[davidlpope]

With reference only to the jacket: This is almost identical to the jacket worn by Loudon MacQueen Doulglas in the photograph opposite page 36 in book THE KILT, A Manual of Scottish National Dress, published in 1914.

If the jacket was made from tweed this would be 100% correct for day wear; made from a finer wool or barathea (as in the photo) it is still correct for day way and perfect for a guest at a wedding, although, perhaps, a trifle too formal for most other outings.

Although the number of button on the front may vary from one to three, the basic Argyll jacket still remains an all-time classic.

MOR,

Can you scan the image or perhaps just describe the setting this jacket was being worn in? I'm not disputing that the argyll style jacket has been around for a long time or that it might be appropriate for a more formal event, such as a wedding, during daylight hours. I'm merely postulating that the current ubiquitous iteration (black fabric with fake silver lozenge-shaped buttons) was not traditionally worn in a "Highland Games" setting where now it seems to predominate, at least here in the US.

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MOR,

Can you scan the image or perhaps just describe the setting this jacket was being worn in? I'm not disputing that the argyll style jacket has been around for a long time or that it might be appropriate for a more formal event, such as a wedding, during daylight hours. I'm merely postulating that the current ubiquitous iteration (black fabric with fake silver lozenge-shaped buttons) was not traditionally worn in a "Highland Games" setting where now it seems to predominate, at least here in the US.

Cordially,

David

David,

Sorry I can't scan the image-- it's beyond my technical capabilities-- but basically it's a photo of Mr. Douglas standing in a garden in a tweed Argyll jacket looking very 1914!

I agree with you that the black Argyll with silver buttons is more at home at a wedding reception than at a Highland games. I guess it shows up at Highland games because it isn't as hot to wear as tweed-- and certainly doesn't look as out of place as a Prince Charlie coatee or Montrose doublet, both of which I've seen worn to games in North America.

Best regards,

Scott

[MacLowlife]

I did not realize Cluny McPherson was wearing a regulation doublet. From the angle of the photo, it looked like another Argyll. Pretty hard to go wrong with a regulation.

I tried not to get too long winded in my earlier post, in order to preserve the readers' patience a little bit, which I hope to use up now. In SC, there is an outfit mockingly referred to as a Charleston Tuxedo: khaki pants and a navy blazer, called that because so many people in Charleston (and throughout the south, really) wear it everywhere. It is as dressed up as many men ever get. If you are too hip for a navy blazer, you might want a black blazer.

I am not that hip myself, but I see that as the real Argyll question: Black or Navy? I think black is iffy for daywear, because it has not been universally accepted as a daytime color for (British and American) men in most of the twentieth century, whereas navy, or charcoal, or other grey, or even brown would be. By contrast, if you wanted to be strictly formal after six, you'd want black. So there you are, either you get black and look like an old west bad guy at noon, or you get blue and run the risk of looking underdressed at night. If you get tweed, you can't wear it for formal events. And yes, in the daytime, black looks like part of a band uniform.

But the white jacket? The problem, as Bertie Wooster learned when he came back from Cannes, is that white formal jackets really only work when it is so hot that even the perceived warmth of a black coat seems too much. (Of course, that is not really an issue most of the time- either there is AC or it's so hot that a white coat is still stifling.) Wear white formal wear any other time, though, and you look like you're trying to be Cab Calloway. Or Captain Steubing.

[macwilkin]

I tried not to get too long winded in my earlier post, in order to preserve the readers' patience a little bit, which I hope to use up now. In SC, there is an outfit mockingly referred to as a Charleston Tuxedo: khaki pants and a navy blazer, called that because so many people in Charleston (and throughout the south, really) wear it everywhere. It is as dressed up as many men ever get. If you are too hip for a navy blazer, you might want a black blazer.

To me, the blue club jacket (traditionally, Blazers were double-breasted) is one of the best investments a man can make for his wardrobe, because it can be dressed up (with grey flannels) or down (with chinos) for almost any occasion, save formal events. And, it also may be worn in the summer months with the traditional dress of the Sommers Isles, Bermuda Shorts and hose.

T.

[longhuntr74]

I did not realize Cluny McPherson was wearing a regulation doublet. From the angle of the photo, it looked like another Argyll. Pretty hard to go wrong with a regulation.

Edited for brevity...

But the white jacket? The problem, as Bertie Wooster learned when he came back from Cannes, is that white formal jackets really only work when it is so hot that even the perceived warmth of a black coat seems too much. (Of course, that is not really an issue most of the time- either there is AC or it's so hot that a white coat is still stifling.) Wear white formal wear any other time, though, and you look like you're trying to be Cab Calloway. Or Captain Steubing.

I also thought it was a Argyll jacket...it is indeed a regimental doublet, isn't it? Speaking of Argyll...is it Argyll or Argyle? I've seen it both ways.

Regarding the white jacket, I like the look...but agree that it is very limited in it's uses. In the case of this particular gentleman, the five button vest and tie are inappropriate to the jacket style IMHO and the vest is ill fitting as well, since you can see the shirt under the vest, caused by the man's large stomach. I've got a huge yearning for a US Army White Mess uniform...but I just have no occassion to wear it. Military regulations limit the wear of the white uniform to summers and by latitude (warmer climates). It is a fairly cheap ($400 or less) uniform to purchase, but I wouldn't get my money's worth I fear...and I'd also stand out drastically in a room full of blue coats.