Dress tartan = failed concept?

**Riverkilt** · 6th February 10, 12:04 PM

Okay...just to clarify...in my less than humble, and entirely useless opinion...I'll purchase a kilt in a dress tartan any time I have the hankerin' for it and I'll wear anyplace, anytime, "I" feel like wearing it. Don't see any special rules attached to dress tartans.

**creagdhubh** · 6th February 10, 12:12 PM

Dress Macpherson or 'Cluny Macpherson' is one of the more popular dress tartans. It is a very handsome and old sett.

**davidlpope** · 6th February 10, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by creagdhubh

Dress Macpherson or 'Cluny Macpherson' is one of the more popular dress tartans. It is a very handsome and old sett.

This tartan, as portrayed by MacIan is described by Logan as "the full-dress pattern of the chief." According to D.C. Stewart, this sett first appeared in the VS and was first worn by the Chief in 1829. So, this is good evidence that in Logan's day (1845) there was an understanding of dress tartans being worn by men on formal occasions.

Originally Posted by Tobus

Interesting question... I had never heard of anyone claiming they were for womens' dresses. I have always seen them described as simply "more formal" tartans for evening attire as a replacement for the standard tartan (with no distinction by gender).

This is just one theory that is out there: that modern "dress tartans" are derived from arisaid setts which were predominately white and worn by women in a garment that is very similar to the breacan felidh, or belted plaid. This is the theory that I've begun to think has no evidentiary basis. The other theory (and the one I've become more convinced is accurate) is what you describe: "Dress" equals "more formal", e.g. Marine Corps "Dress" Blues, etc.

Originally Posted by Riverkilt

Okay...just to clarify...in my less than humble, and entirely useless opinion...I'll purchase a kilt in a dress tartan any time I have the hankerin' for it and I'll wear anyplace, anytime, "I" feel like wearing it. Don't see any special rules attached to dress tartans.

Ron- right, no offense meant on my end. I don't think anyone is trying to prescribe a set of rules that you must adhere to when it comes to wearing a tartan. As Aleister Crowley famously said, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

My interest in this is a historical and academic one. I'm very interested in how these tartans came about and what their original purpose was seen to be. I can recognize, though, that historical precedent doesn't bind current, or future, use.

Cordially,

David

**Bob C** · 6th February 10, 02:18 PM

When I got married, my party wore rental kilts in Dress Gordon. They looked great.

**Jock Scot** · 6th February 10, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by davidlpope

Right, I think this is precisely the academic question that is being grappled with. Setting aside those "dress tartans" which were created as fashion tartans for highland dancing, does "Dress" in "Dress Tartan" mean "from a woman's garment" or "for formal occasions"? Peter MacDonald has raised a good point in that we can't seem to produce evidence to establish a link between arisaids and modern dress tartans, which I had always thought existed. If that's not the case then we're back to primary source research. Cordially, David

Rightly or wrongly I have always been led to believe,by assorted tailors amongst others, that "dress", as in dress tartans, was and is entirely a male thing and these tartans were to be worn at formal gatherings by men. The only exception, a silk dress tartan sash could be worn by ladies who were accompanying their partner.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 6th February 10, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by davidlpope

This tartan, as portrayed by MacIan is described by Logan as "the full-dress pattern of the chief." According to D.C. Stewart, this sett first appeared in the VS and was first worn by the Chief in 1829. So, this is good evidence that in Logan's day (1845) there was an understanding of dress tartans being worn by men on formal occasions.

Well, yes and no. This is actually the "personal tartan" of the Chief, so it really wasn't intended to be a clan tartan. It was also, as I recall, predominately gray, not white, as is the modern "Dress" M'Pherson.

Although I can't speak to the antiquity of "dress tartans", I can reaffirm what Jock has said-- tailors always told their clients that the dress tartan was intended to be worn at formal gatherings-- by men. Now whether that was true, or just a ruse to sell another kilt, I wouldn't know.

I've never thought it odd to see a gentlemen so kilted at a tartan ball, but always thought it looked a bit unusual to see a "dress tartan" worn with a hairy tweed jack at the Highland games.

But then I'd think it looked odd if I saw someone at a matinee performance of a ballet in white tie-- I suppose it is all down to dressing for the occasion.

**Paul** · 6th February 10, 05:58 PM

The only dress tartan that I've come accross that I really like is the MacDonald Dress... it's extremely original and not too bright at all. Here I am wearing it (hired outfit) for my school prom 4 years ago:

**Tobus** · 7th February 10, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Rightly or wrongly I have always been led to believe,by assorted tailors amongst others, that "dress", as in dress tartans, was and is entirely a male thing and these tartans were to be worn at formal gatherings by men.

That is precisely what I have seen dress tartans described as. I don't think I've ever seen it said that they were restricted to this role, but this role was the original intent of dress tartans (and again, it just doesn't seem to have caught on as a generally accepted thing, seeing as how most men still wear their original tartans for formal events).

I'll purchase a kilt in a dress tartan any time I have the hankerin' for it and I'll wear anyplace, anytime, "I" feel like wearing it. Don't see any special rules attached to dress tartans.

It's always difficult to read "tone" in written words, but I sense that you're getting a little defensive here, and I hope it's not because of what I said. Regardless of the original intent of dress tartans, I don't think anybody is claiming that they can't be worn elsewhere. Yours looks great for any role.

I'm just interested in how/when/why they came about.

**Riverkilt** · 7th February 10, 11:02 AM

No defense intended. As noted, my statement is a clarification - an "I" statement of how I feel about dress tartans. Not intended that anyone else needs to agree.

**Jock Scot** · 7th February 10, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tobus

That is precisely what I have seen dress tartans described as. I don't think I've ever seen it said that they were restricted to this role, but this role was the original intent of dress tartans (and again, it just doesn't seem to have caught on as a generally accepted thing, seeing as how most men still wear their original tartans for formal events).

It's always difficult to read "tone" in written words, but I sense that you're getting a little defensive here, and I hope it's not because of what I said. Regardless of the original intent of dress tartans, I don't think anybody is claiming that they can't be worn elsewhere. Yours looks great for any role.

I'm just interested in how/when/why they came about.

Until recently, don't forget, the cost of kilts was almost prohibitive to be able to afford two. Most people were "happy" with one tank(the only style choice anyway) and most people did not venture out into the dizzy social heights of going to formal events regularly(if at all) to warrant one made of dress tartan. Two very good reasons why dress tartans were/are not so common. Personally I do think they look out of place when worn as day wear, unless you are a MacLeod of Lewis that is.