Boy Scout kilts

[jordanjm]

The only problem I see with trying to change the BSA rules is, U.K. Scouting codes aside where do you draw the line. The BSA managed to create a uniform, which allowed some form of "Ethnic" dress for scouts of all heritages. This would probably be to much to accomplish in the USA.

[gordontaos]

I feel that it is fitting that this thread should miraculously come to the top of the forums on the 100th birthday of Boy Scouting in the USA!

That picture of Lord Baden Powell sure does put an end, in my mind at least, to any discussion as to what is right or wrong as to uniforming.

I am an Eagle Scout (1968), and in my Scouting career no Pack/Troop/ Post ever allowed anything less than a full uniform. Also, in my experience,( as a camp ranger, etc.) you could tell the quality of an individual troop by the quality of the uniforming.None of us had a lot of money, but somehow, we all managed. How much is spent on fast food by the folks that say they can not afford a pair of uniform pants?

Kilts???? WhooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chas]

That picture of Lord Baden Powell sure does put an end, in my mind at least, to any discussion as to what is right or wrong as to uniforming.

Which picture are you talking about? The one above is not of Lord Baden-Powell. There is no picture of B-P wearing a kilt. Although he wore the baggy, knee length shorts with hiking hose and garters; he is quoted as saying that he wouldn't wear the kilt as he 'didn't have the legs for it'.

Regards

Chas

[longhuntr74]

I am an Eagle Scout (1968), and in my Scouting career no Pack/Troop/ Post ever allowed anything less than a full uniform. Also, in my experience,( as a camp ranger, etc.) you could tell the quality of an individual troop by the quality of the uniforming.None of us had a lot of money, but somehow, we all managed. How much is spent on fast food by the folks that say they can not afford a pair of uniform pants?

Here, here!! My 28 years with the BSA has created the same observation...troops that require full uniform also, somehow, tend to be the best organized, best led, and have the best program for the boys. That excuse about pants costing too much, etc is the biggest BS excuse ever. The fast food analogy is a good one. These same parents would also not hesitate to spend $150 for football pads, a helmet, cleats, etc. if there son wanted to play football. Every activity has certain costs and I think the BSA goes to GREAT measures to ensure that any boy or girl that wants to participate can. Most units I've ever been involved with cover the cost of registration (it's about $10 for a year now if I recall...was $7 forever) and will give people time to get the required uniform items. There are also many second-hand uniform swap shops in most localities.

Being military and moving around several states has given me a unique opportunity to see a broad range of program and organizations...most of them don't measure up to my experiences...but some of that may just be nostalgia, I'll admit.

As far as the kilt and the BSA uniform....I would probably violate that rule for certain functions...but I would not go so far as to wear that as a standard item. It is not allowed and I don't think there's really good cause to adopt it. There are some of us that would like to see it, but on the whole, Boy Scouting in America (meaning the USA, not all the Americas) does not have any sort of tradition of the kilt.

[AZ_Scouter]

I dunno - that looks like him on the right hand side to me.

I'm open to further, but I think it's BP.

[Chas]

I dunno - that looks like him on the right hand side to me.

I'm open to further, but I think it's B-P.

Sorry, no. There is nothing about the gentleman on the right that resembles B-P.

Lord Baden-Powell was a slightly built individual - This gentleman is (I will be generous) well padded.

Lord Baden-Powell did not have a double chin - This gentleman does.

Lord Baden-Powell's face was oval - This gentleman's face is full and round.

Lord Baden-Powell had three (or more) rows of medal ribbons - This gentleman has one.

Lord Baden-Powell had a very prominent moustache - I am having trouble discerning whether the gentleman has one or not.

Lord Baden-Powell is generally pictured carrying or using a walking stick or cane. See picture below. He did not do this as a fashion statement. He used a walking stick because he needed to use a walking stick. The gentleman does not seem to have one about his person.

This is a picture of B-P in 1919 when he was 62 years of age.



Note also the quality of both of the photographs. This is a studio photograph of an internationally known individual, so I do not believe that the photographer would have used a Box Brownie. He would have used the best equipment that was available at the time. By the quality, the other photograph is taken much later (possibly even post war), but the gentleman has become younger looking. Remember B-P had practically retired from Scouting by 1939 when he went to live in Kenya, where he died in 1941.

The gentleman is wearing a white armband. Historically, in the UK, this type of armband was used to signify the staff at an event (starter, marshal, umpire and the like). In 1912, B-P and President Taft reviewed a parade of Boy Scouts from the steps of the White House. He was universally acclaimed and idolised by the boys themselves. It is possible that he might have started an event in the way that many 'stars' start sporting events. But I do not think it is possible that he would have started an event in any uniform other than his dress uniform and certainly never hatless. He was after all an army officer (Lieutenant-General) in a time when men wore hats out of doors.

I could go on, but I think that this has adequately proved the point.

It would be nice to think that B-P strapped on a kilt one day to meet Scottish scouts, but sadly it never happened. B-P's own words debunk this when he said that he 'didn't have the legs for it'.

Regards

Chas
(Gilwell trained, Woodbadge holder)

[longhuntr74]

Chas...I think you're right...no clue who the other guy is, but not B-P. What is the pin that BP is wearing on the side of his campaign hat in this pic? Any clue? I assume that this uniform is his military uniform as a Lieutenant General and that this portrait was taken when he was long since retired?

[Chas]

Chas...I think you're right...no clue who the other guy is, but not B-P. What is the pin that BP is wearing on the side of his campaign hat in this pic? Any clue? I assume that this uniform is his military uniform as a Lieutenant General and that this portrait was taken when he was long since retired?

Hi Longhuntr,



In the UK, that type of hat was called the 'Boy Scout' or the 'lemon squeezer'. It was chosen by B-P himself for these reasons:

1. The brim keeps the sun out of your eyes
2. The brim keeps the rain from dripping down the back of your neck, and
3. It can be used in an emergency to carry water.

It was made of moulded brown felt with a leather belt round the base of the crown (1/2" wide for the boys and 1" for leaders). Not shown in the picture is the hat badge - worn immediately above the belt and partially covering it. Each country had their own design, so as 'Chief Scout of the World', B-P probably wore none so as not to favour one country over another. In the UK, there was also a brown boot lace which tied as a bow in the front on the brim, below the hat badge. Again, ever practical, this bootlace could be used as an emergency boot lace (it was long enough) or as a chin strap during windy weather.

A bit of background to your question.

The badge on the side of the hat was a rank and position badge. In the UK, there were the following personnel:

Headquarters staff (HQ) - Running the Boy Scout Association on a national basis.

County Commissioners (CC) - In charge of all Scouting activity, within their county. Reports to HQ.

Assistant County Commissioners (ACC) - In charge of the various sections under the CC. (Wolf Cubs, Boy Scouts, Rover Scouts, Air or Sea Scouts, Any other area of expertise). Reports to CC

District Commissioners (DC) - In charge of all Scouting activity, within their district. Reports to CC.

Assistant District Commissioners (ADC) - Same as ACC, but on a district level. Reports to DC.

Group Scout Masters/Leaders (GSM/GSL - Responsible for the running of a Scout Group. The Group could comprise many elements - 3 Cub Packs, 2 Troops and 1 Rover Crew or just one - 1 Scout troop (at a boarding school). Reports to the DC

Scout Masters/Leaders (SL) - Run a Scout Troop. The Scout Troop could be one of many hundreds in a city, or the only one in a village, or be amalgamated with others to make a reasonable sized troop. (from my own Assistant Leader days - 1st Downham Market, Barroway Drove and Nordelph (Lord Abnorth's Own). Reports to the GSL

Assistant Scout Masters/Leaders (ASL) Assist the SL in the running of the Troop. Reports to the SL

Wolf Cub Scouts became Cub Scouts and the leaders CSMs and ACSMs
Boy Scouts became Scouts
Rover Scouts became Venture Scouts
Masters became Leaders

To get to your question - finally.

Each of these people wore a badge on the side of their hat. It looked rather like a Scottish Armiger's cap badge. A ring (not rope) with the Fleur-de-lys inside. Behind the badge and sticking up above it was the 'plume'. The badge looked rather like a flat paintbrush. The plume was in various colours to match the rank or position.

Full green was for trained Leaders (SLs and CSLs and VSLs),
Yellow/Green/Yellow was for Assistants,
Full Yellow was for Leaders without Portfolio (could be sent anywhere or do any job with very little notice) (often called the Yellow Perils),
Black were for Padres (of any religion),

This is where old age and senile decay kicks in. There were also Purple, Yellow/Purple/Yellow, Red, Red and Green, White and all the various mixtures. I forget who wore what.

When the uniform was re-vamped, we got the beret and the rank badge from the side, became the cap badge in the front. Then later all cap badges were the same for boys and leaders and leaders wore a rank strip above the County badge.

B-P wore either a Green or Red plume - I have seen pictures of him wearing both (I do not know why).

The jacket that he in wearing was standard Scout Leaders uniform (all ranks and positions) at that time. They wore a uniform shirt and tie and the military style jacket (4 button, single breasted, belted, with patch pockets in a khaki colour). Note there are no epaulets. It was designed to be a cross between military and civilian dress - military enough to be a uniform, but not military enough to be too expensive.

I hope this answers the question. Yours in Scouting.

Regards

Chas

[longhuntr74]

Great answer Chas! Interesting to learn that the jacket in question is actually a Scout uniform. I have seen B-P in this jacket my whole scouting life, but I guess I always assumed it to be a carryover from his military days. Are the medals he's wearing military or scouting decorations?

Great info on the "lemon squeezer" that we in the US typically know as a campaign cover/hat (if you're military) or "Smokey Bear" hat (if civilian...smokey bear is the US Forest Service's character that tells you to help prevent forest fires...and he wears a park ranger's hat much the same as this style). Two interesting things about this hat.

1. Your comment about the shoelace explains something to me. Military and modern BSA versions have a leather strap instead of a lace. I had seen some old versions of the BSA issue with the lace and I always assumed it was a substitute for a worn or lost leather strap...but based on your comments it appears that perhaps it used to be purchased with the lace instead of a leather strap.

2. The crimping on the crown in this picture is 45 degrees off of every modern campaign hat I've ever seen...typically they have the ridges running front to back and side to side. It appears in this pic that the dents are front and back, side to side, with the ridges running diagonally. Very interesting difference. Was this the norm? Do British Scouts still wear a hat of this type? If so, how is the crown positioned?

[Chas]

Great answer Chas! Interesting to learn that the jacket in question is actually a Scout uniform. I have seen B-P in this jacket my whole scouting life, but I guess I always assumed it to be a carryover from his military days. Are the medals he's wearing military or scouting decorations?

Great info on the "lemon squeezer" that we in the US typically know as a campaign cover/hat (if you're military) or "Smokey Bear" hat (if civilian...smokey bear is the US Forest Service's character that tells you to help prevent forest fires...and he wears a park ranger's hat much the same as this style). Two interesting things about this hat.

1. Your comment about the shoelace explains something to me. Military and modern BSA versions have a leather strap instead of a lace. I had seen some old versions of the BSA issue with the lace and I always assumed it was a substitute for a worn or lost leather strap...but based on your comments it appears that perhaps it used to be purchased with the lace instead of a leather strap.

2. The crimping on the crown in this picture is 45 degrees off of every modern campaign hat I've ever seen...typically they have the ridges running front to back and side to side. It appears in this pic that the dents are front and back, side to side, with the ridges running diagonally. Very interesting difference. Was this the norm? Do British Scouts still wear a hat of this type? If so, how is the crown positioned?

1. It was a true bootlace (some 36" long). To thread it , one found the middle and folded in half and then tied a thumb or overhand knot. This this should give a small loop, which was used to hang the hat up by. The 2 ends were threaded up through holes on either side, in the brim, close to the crown. The lace then went forwards to the front of the hat. After adjustment, for length at the back, it was tied with a reef or square knot to anchor it. The recommended procedure was to tie a bow and that was it. Most Scouts went one further and tied a knot in the ends of the lace. I had a bowline on one side and a figure of eight knot in the other.

Why? Because we were boys and we could!

2. In the UK, the dents were fore and aft and side to side. Sadly the lemon squeezer is long since gone. The uniform review in the 60's got rid of it and the shorts. They gave us a beret, which was OK to start with. A few years later, new shirts came out without epaulets. So the boys had a hat and nowhere to put it. Monthly church parade always saw a few berets left in the pews. Whereas with the lemon squeezer, if you wore the lace at the front, you could push the hat back and it hung off your shoulders - didn't get lost, both hands free and acceptable for church parade.

All B-P's medals are military or campaign medals. We are very parsimonious with our medals here in the UK and there is no such thing as 'ribbon only'. B-P was in service at a time when there was a lot of strife in the world, so all of his were earned in active service. If he was on 'International' duty he wore the Silver Wolf award. If it was just domestic then it was the Bronze Wolf. In the US he would wear the Silver Buffalo. As a military man, he knew the procedure and wore the right level of decoration for whatever event. This is why we can be assured that he never wore a kilt. There is no Scottish connection in his father's line and he didn't serve in any Scottish regiment. If he wore a kilt it would be seen as a costume and something of an insult to his 'brother' scouts. It just wasn't done at that time outside of the music halls or the theatres - if you weren't on stage or a Scotsman, you didn't wear a kilt!

Regards

Chas