What my Mom says about belt loops on kilts

**Jock Scot** · 14th February 10, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Redshank

it's all very confusing for us simple scotsfolk, I guess we live and learn

Sometimes I get so confused that I begin to think that the kilt was invented in the USA!

**mbhandy** · 14th February 10, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Sometimes I get so confused that I begin to think that the kilt was invented in the USA!

Only at Xmarks.

MrBill

**Jock Scot** · 14th February 10, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by mbhandy

Only at Xmarks.

MrBill

If you say so!

**cavscout** · 14th February 10, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Sometimes I get so confused that I begin to think that the kilt was invented in the USA!

No, just Reborn

**OC Richard** · 15th February 10, 04:55 AM

I listened for several hours at a solo piping competition yesterday, and boy did it jump out to my eye how, on several pipers who had their waistbelts shoved through the belt loops on their kilts, the back of their kilts resembled the Golden Gate Bridge's cables (like the McDonald's arches inverted).

Shortly afterwards I was talking to a Scottish guy who owns a kilt shop, and I noticed that he himself had his waistbelt shoved through his loops.

I myself order kilts with two buckles and no loops! It's the way kilts should be in my opinion.

Hmmm.... why don't they make those loops really small so that you can only put your sporran strap through them...

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 15th February 10, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by OC Richard

Hmmm.... why don't they make those loops really small so that you can only put your sporran strap through them...

That's the way the loops were originally made -- I've had to alter a few older kilts that had these very small belt loops for the sporran strap.

I've been told (this is all anecdotal, mind you) that the reason kiltmakers started to make their belt loops wide enough to accomodate the kilt belt was because they were requested to by their clients who couldn't understand why their wide belts couldn't fit through the tiny loops!

As for the "kilts invented in the USA" comment -- well, all I can say to that is that it is mostly Scottish kiltmakers putting belt loops on kilts, so I'm not sure what the USA has to do with it.

I'm in the US, and I don't put belt loops on my kilts. Of the three other US professional kiltmakers that I have had direct, personal experience with, none of them made their kilts with belt loops unless specifically instructed to by their clients.

**slohairt** · 15th February 10, 08:04 AM

I never recommend belt loops and only advocate (smaller) sporran loops if the wearer's hips and waist are identical in size.

Matt is correct on his observation as well. Every Scottish-made civilian kilt I've ever altered has had large belt (not sporran) loops.

**NorCalPiper** · 15th February 10, 10:58 AM

Momma is in her mid-60's, so this phenomena has been around for at least that long. I've spoken to her since I posted for her further thoughts. She states that the tradition of belt wearing stems from the kilt becoming civilian clothing other than regimental. She sites that regimental kilts should rise to the arc of the rib cage to accommodate the military doublet, and the belt being fastened around the doublet. Her thoughts are that when the kilt left the regimental arena and began to take popularity in the populace, the waist came down to the navel for comfort sake, and accessorizing meant non-military style coats that could remain open if need be (Argyll jackets, etc.). THe belt and its buckle gained whole new meaning from this. Belts were not needed to carry swords or pistols. She stated that lowering the length to near the waist creates issues with the small of the back (Military cut kilts are 2-3 inches above this area, thus not affected). Dr.Tewks talks about this issue in her book, but my mother feels that inevitably a kilt losses that perfect fit and a belt is necessary. I told her about the sagging "U" thats created by this, and she said that if that is happening then both end of the kilt loops are sewn to the pleat and not one end up into the top band. She even challenged me to find a picture of a kilt that has "proper" loops done that has the sag. ANyone?

**fluter** · 15th February 10, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Sometimes I get so confused that I begin to think that the kilt was invented in the USA!

Actually most of us hereabouts learned the lesson of the sporran loops from Elsie Stuehmeyer and her amanuensis Barb T. Elsie learned it from Thomas Gordon's in Glasgow.

And the wheel keeps turning...

**OC Richard** · 16th February 10, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by NorCalPiper

...regimental kilts should rise to the arc of the rib cage to accommodate the military doublet, and the belt being fastened around the doublet. Her thoughts are that when the kilt left the regimental arena and began to take popularity in the populace, the waist came down to the navel...

She's probably bang-on.

In the US pipe band scene many of the players, esp younger ones, insist on shoving the kilt down around the hips so that the bottom of the kilt comes to the top of the hose, hiding the knees.

Some doublet makers have responded by making their doublets far longer in the waist than military doublets properly are.

Here's a clear photo of the proper height of the waist of a military doublet, worn by a private of the Cameron Highlanders. The kilt must be high-waisted as well.

Here's a modern Scottish army doublet showing this high waist:

Here's a doublet probably made in India or Pakistan with an absurdly long waist:

I wonder if it was made that way out of ignorance, or because US clients were asking for them to be that way.