Irish Kilts and Tartans

[MrShoe]

Originally Posted by Detroitpete
GREAT article gentleman! I did notice ONE thing I MIGHT change..."One of the most famous and well-preserved examples is the Dungiven outfit, found near Londonderry in 1956."

Do you mean Derry, perchance?

Please just a friendly nudge here--no malice implied. Really appreciate your hard work on this.

Oh please, lets not get into splitting hairs over a name! A friendly nudge it may be, but-----------.

It is a good question, btw.
The answer is Yes, Londonderry. At the time of the Plantation of County Derry so many were from London that the County name was changed to Londonderry. There is still the city of Derry.


RADGE - I intended no disrespect when posting information on Owen O'Neill as He defeated the Scots under Monro at Benburb in County Tyrone in 1646. it was just a part of the text I quoted to provide information on him.

[macwilkin]

My understanding is that the Irish Plantations were settled with Protestant English and Lowland Scots. As Jock points out, these Lowlanders looked down upon the Scots Highlanders, their language, and their manner of dress.

I'm convinced that there is no genuine historic basis for "Irish Kilts" prior to the Nationalist movements that Todd has discussed. Anything else seems to be grasping at straws...

Cordially,

David

Not to mention small numbers of Welsh, Manx, French Huguenots, German Palantines and Danes (William's Army in 1690 was a Protestant Coalition Army).

For example, the noted American frontiersman David Crockett was of Huguenot ancestry -- the original spelling of the surname was Croquetagne.

T.

[MrShoe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radge
About O'Neill sporting the Caubeen, aparently it wasn't a common type of headgear worn locally and may have come about by his adoption of headwear similar to that worn by the MacDonnell's of Antrim. Scots Bonnets.

So we credit the caubeen to be Scottish because it was similar to the Scot Bonnets? Not something new? Of course it was not common. When something or considered to be starting is new is it common?

So far, I can't say I have ever seen any source stating that the caubeens were based on O'Neill's headgear.

I'm sure that the AOH and Wikipedia would not be credible enough sources. There was a time when law made wearing a shamrock, seen as rebellion, a hanging offense.
Like the British Army would openly promote the origin of a uniform item as coming from a leader of the Irish rebellion that they fought to put down. However, London Irish Rifles Regimental Association will at least make mention of it ..."wearing what might be a caubeen".

Thank you for bringing up the point that a "caubeen" may also refer to a hat with a brim; hence in the famous song The Wearing of the Green, the line about "I will change the colour that I wear in my caubeen."


You don't change the thistle or dandelion that you wear in your head covering?

There are many literary references to the caubeen, but no pictures found in the following reference. At the time of the writing I would have to believe that they were in existence and considered Irish for at least a while.
Toronto Sunday World - Jan 3 1913
The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1
The Literacy Digest vol xx, for 6 months endind 6/30/1900, page 615
Notes and Queries - medium of intercommunication, 7th series vol 9, Jan-June 1890 pg 255
Catholic World - October 1877 - March 1878 page 216
Littel's Living Age, Jan, Feb, March 1860
A Singing Ambivalence in America Immigrants. Between old world and new 1830-1930 pg 1

[macwilkin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radge
About O'Neill sporting the Caubeen, aparently it wasn't a common type of headgear worn locally and may have come about by his adoption of headwear similar to that worn by the MacDonnell's of Antrim. Scots Bonnets.

So we credit the caubeen to be Scottish because it was similar to the Scot Bonnets? Not something new? Of course it was not common. When something or considered to be starting is new is it common?

So far, I can't say I have ever seen any source stating that the caubeens were based on O'Neill's headgear.

I'm sure that the AOH and Wikipedia would not be credible enough sources. There was a time when law made wearing a shamrock, seen as rebellion, a hanging offense.
Like the British Army would openly promote the origin of a uniform item as coming from a leader of the Irish rebellion that they fought to put down. However, London Irish Rifles Regimental Association will at least make mention of it ..."wearing what might be a caubeen".

Thank you for bringing up the point that a "caubeen" may also refer to a hat with a brim; hence in the famous song The Wearing of the Green, the line about "I will change the colour that I wear in my caubeen."


You don't change the thistle or dandelion that you wear in your head covering?

There are many literary references to the caubeen, but no pictures found in the following reference. At the time of the writing I would have to believe that they were in existence and considered Irish for at least a while.
Toronto Sunday World - Jan 3 1913
The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1
The Literacy Digest vol xx, for 6 months endind 6/30/1900, page 615
Notes and Queries - medium of intercommunication, 7th series vol 9, Jan-June 1890 pg 255
Catholic World - October 1877 - March 1878 page 216
Littel's Living Age, Jan, Feb, March 1860
A Singing Ambivalence in America Immigrants. Between old world and new 1830-1930 pg 1

Note the use of the word "might" by the London Irish Rifles. Even they do not have a definitive source that the bonnet of Owen Roe O'Neill was the inspiration for the British Army Caubeen. Pure speculation until a definitive source says, "yes, a woodcut of O'Neill was the inspiration".

And what you fail to mention is that during the reign of Queen Victoria, Irish soldiers were presented with Shamrocks on St. Patrick's Day -- our article actually cites a newspaper story from the New York Times regarding this custom -- it is still practiced today when the "Micks" (The Irish Guards) receive the shamrock from the Sovereign.

What does your list of sources say specifically? Are they discussing a caubeen, a "shabby old hat", or an Irish bonnet worn by soldiers? Remember that the word is also slang for the former, as in The Wearing of the Green.

For example, you cite: The Plays of Lady Gegory, by Andrew E. Malone, 1924, page 1. I just looked this article up on JSTOR (an online periodical database) and all it says is: "The caubeen has been displaced by the peaked cap...", in reference to the stereotypical music hall Irishman (bejabbers and begorah!). Nothing about an Irish bonnet worn by Irish soldiers, past or present.

Wikipedia, as my students will tell you, is not an acceptable source. I noted in their entry on the caubeen that a "citation is needed" for the O'Neill story.

Again, I don't really understand why you're getting a bee in your caubeen about this.

T.

[RadioKen]

Gentlemen:

What a fascinating article! Now I have even MORE kilt history and information with which to bore my wife to tears!

I do have a question regarding the color photograph of the saffron school kilt: Has anyone here seen the kilt in this photo personally? As has already been pointed out, the photo shows the pleats running in the opposite direction than what is typically seen on a knife-pleated kilt. I've printed plenty of photographs, both in a darkroom and digitally, that have been flipped horizontally, either intentionally or by accident. I couldn't see anything in this photograph that would allow me to say that the photo is definitely oriented one way or the other, though admittedly the details aren't terribly large on my computer screen.

On the subject of the caubeen, I have this to say, for what it is worth: I'm a fan of hats. My typical daily headwear is a type of Belgian beret in black wool which, when worn with the soft band turned out instead of in bears a marked resemblance to the photos of caubeens I've seen. My understanding of "caubeen" as a word is that it originally (and broadly) meant "little hat", and could have been used to refer to any number of small styles, brimmed or otherwise. It's been pointed out that the Scottish bonnet and the Irish caubeen are very similar to one another and also to other soft, "beret"-styles worn in Europe over the past few hundred years. I'm not learned enough to make any strong statements one way or the other, but are we looking at a case of fashion migration (and hold-over?), or concurrent evolution? Not that it matters to me, really; I like the style regardless of origins. But I'm the sort of person who likes Knowing Things and this sort of question gets my curiosity going (much to my wife's annoyance).

~Ken

[slohairt]

From a non historians angle, mine, it is well known that the kilt is Highland attire and it is only very recently that the lowland Scots have taken to the kilt. It gives us Highlanders a certain amount of amusement to hear lowland Scots pontificating about the kilt, when for centuries they poured nothing but scorn on it.

Which brings me to another point, these incomers from Scotland that came to Ireland all those centuries ago, were they from the lowlands?I am not at all sure that the five Nobles mentioned above could be described as genuine highlanders. If so, the question is answered, they would not have had(unlikely anyway) the kilt for the native Irish to copy.

Yes, Jock as David pointed out, the Plantation was mostly Lowland Scots and English.

Whenever people talk of the Scots in Ulster, they always seem to refer only to the Plantation. There were, however, a substantial number of Highlanders already living in Ulster: the Gallowglass. I think they are mainly forgotten because they were Gaelic-speaking and largely Catholic, so they were assimilated very quickly into the native Irish culture.

[macwilkin]

Gentlemen:

What a fascinating article! Now I have even MORE kilt history and information with which to bore my wife to tears!

I do have a question regarding the color photograph of the saffron school kilt: Has anyone here seen the kilt in this photo personally? As has already been pointed out, the photo shows the pleats running in the opposite direction than what is typically seen on a knife-pleated kilt. I've printed plenty of photographs, both in a darkroom and digitally, that have been flipped horizontally, either intentionally or by accident. I couldn't see anything in this photograph that would allow me to say that the photo is definitely oriented one way or the other, though admittedly the details aren't terribly large on my computer screen.

On the subject of the caubeen, I have this to say, for what it is worth: I'm a fan of hats. My typical daily headwear is a type of Belgian beret in black wool which, when worn with the soft band turned out instead of in bears a marked resemblance to the photos of caubeens I've seen. My understanding of "caubeen" as a word is that it originally (and broadly) meant "little hat", and could have been used to refer to any number of small styles, brimmed or otherwise. It's been pointed out that the Scottish bonnet and the Irish caubeen are very similar to one another and also to other soft, "beret"-styles worn in Europe over the past few hundred years. I'm not learned enough to make any strong statements one way or the other, but are we looking at a case of fashion migration (and hold-over?), or concurrent evolution? Not that it matters to me, really; I like the style regardless of origins. But I'm the sort of person who likes Knowing Things and this sort of question gets my curiosity going (much to my wife's annoyance).

~Ken

The photo is from the Pearse Museum in Ireland, Ken. I contacted the curator, Brian Crowley, regarding similar photos I had seen in the Irish Kilt Society's newsletter several years back.

Regarding your question on the caubeen, It's my personal opinion that the jury is still out on that -- I've seen a caubeen described as a "shabby old hat" in the style worn by the stereotypical Irishman of the mid 19th century.

T.

[thanmuwa]

Great article guys!


With regard to Derry/Londonderry I think the only appropriate response is:

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

FWIW: My gardener used to refer refer to his flat cap as a caubeen. I think that to today's rural Irish-- and probably most Irish prior to 1921-- the word caubeen means whatever hat they are wearing, as opposed to the military bonnet worn by Irish pipe bands, etc.

[macwilkin]

FWIW: My gardener used to refer refer to his flat cap as a caubeen. I think that to today's rural Irish-- and probably most Irish prior to 1921-- the word caubeen means whatever hat they are wearing, as opposed to the military bonnet worn by Irish pipe bands, etc.

Exactly. Much like geographic names (Argyll, Balmoral, etc.) were assigned to jackets and other pieces of Highland kit, I think the word "caubeen", which meant "hat" or "cap", was simply assigned to the military bonnet.

T.