Royal Visit to the USA

[Jock Scot]

I was actually taught the basics of primogeniture by Mrs. Mobbs, my teacher in the 3rd grade. (That was back when they really tried to educate in publc schools in the US)

But all this detail about the passing and creating of titles is quite fascinating. Thank you, gentlemen, for a stimulating bit of repartee. Those of us who are not so familiar with the topic are finding a true education here.

BTW, I'll take Jock's bet. I'll bet the first dram of whisky when he comes over--or when I go over, which ever comes first--that HRH is kilted in Greenville. If the good Lord's willin' and the creek don't rise, I'll be there to take photos. It's only about a 2 hour drive from here.

I have no inside info, but I do love a good wager, and it'll add some anticipation. Besides, who wouldn't want to share a drink with another curmudgeon? I might get to see his bonnet up close and personal.

You are on! I am looking forward to you buying me that drink already. Its a dead cert!

[McClef]

All titles are derived from the sovereign who may, if so moved, deprive a subject of their title. In that regard all titles are property of the crown.

I used "property" as meaning inimical to or residing with the Crown.

The Monarch is the "fount of honour" but confers honours for the most part upon the recommendation of the Prime Minister, only a very few such as the Garter or the Thistle are within their own personal gift.

Nowadays new honours are conferred upon an individual for their lifetime only and have no inheritance value. The only two exceptions to this that I know of in the last quarter century were the bestowal of a Viscountcy upon George Thomas (who had no heirs anyway) and a Baronetcy upon Dennis Thatcher which was then inherited by his son Mark,

Removal of an honour, once given, is extremely rare and can take a long time and even then the Monarch does not do this on their own initiative but upon the recommendation of a committee.

In the case of all those titles that were conferred at some point in the past that did have an inheritance value (and there are indeed many as the thickness of the volumes of Burke's Peerage shows) the Monarch would indeed be extremely rarely involved after Creation. The title was given as a gift and any deprivation (such as for treason) would not be of the title but of the individual holding it and the title would then go to the next in line. That might not happen in the lifetime of the person who had held the title, however.

There were changes made regarding those who were MPs who then inherited a hereditary peerage but this was not at the instigation of the Monarch but by Parliament. The fact that Tony Benn disclaimed his hereditary Peerage did not in itself end the Viscountcy of Stansgate. It is in abeyance during his lifetime but upon his demise his son Hilary would then inherit that title and then have to decide what to do with it. However as peers of the realm are no longer automatically entitled to sit in the Lords they no longer have to disclaim a title to remain in the Commons. There are at least three Peers who are MPs currently.

Non royal titles may become extinct but they do not revert to the Crown in the same way that royal titles do.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Non royal titles may become extinct but they do not revert to the Crown in the same way that royal titles do.

This has gotten waaaay off topic, but... Actually all titles do revert to the sovereign, because the only way that they can be "revived" (or if one wishes to be "green" recycled) is by the issuance of new letters patent signed by the sovereign.

But MORE TO THE POINT: Trefor, will you be wearing a kilt when HRH attends the Greenville, SC, Scottish Games?

You are coming, aren't you?

[MacLowlife]

Anarchists, Monarchists, Overdressed PC wearers?


Who plans to go to the Greenville Highland Games? Has anyone been before?

[Pleater]

One minor addition to all the information about inheritance of titles - it is the first legitimate son, not the firstborn - in English law. The law in Wales was different at one time, and I am unsure of how Scottish law deals with legitimacy and inheritance

Primogeniture only confers a title, or any inheritable thing, where the parents were married before the birth - even if the midwife is already in attendance.

Not that there was anything much to inherit in my family, but my mother went to great lengths to hide the fact that I was conceived out of wedlock, maintaining that she was married in the previous year. I was born legitimate - but also numerate, and with an enquiring mind - I must have been a trial to her.

I believe that there is an English title which went or will go to the second son due to the parents getting married after the birth of their first child.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[McClef]

Well if they do MOR can you give any examples? As far as I know only the royal ones get recycled this way.

Claims to ordinary titles that may have been dormant or in dispute are settled by a Committee for Privileges, not by the Monarch.

Such as - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Moynihan

As to my attendance - I can only wish, subject to a pleasant Lottery win!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

One minor addition to all the information about inheritance of titles - it is the first legitimate son, not the firstborn - in English law. The law in Wales was different at one time, and I am unsure of how Scottish law deals with legitimacy and inheritance

Primogeniture only confers a title, or any inheritable thing, where the parents were married before the birth - even if the midwife is already in attendance.

Not that there was anything much to inherit in my family, but my mother went to great lengths to hide the fact that I was conceived out of wedlock, maintaining that she was married in the previous year. I was born legitimate - but also numerate, and with an enquiring mind - I must have been a trial to her.

I believe that there is an English title which went or will go to the second son due to the parents getting married after the birth of their first child.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

Again , off topic, but... let me address this from multiple perspectives: In the first instance, since we are talking about an incorporeal heritable property, be it a title or coat of arms, in the final analysis it comes down to what may be called the "destination clause" in the Letters Patent. It is this clause, and this clause alone, which determines the succession to either the title or, in the case of arms, the undifferenced coat of arms of the original grantee. In the instance of titles the destination usually takes the form of the phrase "heirs male" or "heirs general", whilst in heraldic Letters Patent the phrase more commonly encountered is "and to his (her) descendants".

Broadly speaking both of these destination clauses have been rooted in the common law practice of male primogeniture as the "default" interpretation when either a title, or coat of arms, transfers by inheritance. That said, special destination clauses (like those for the earldom of Mountbatten of Burma), or an outright petition to the sovereign, can result in the title going to a daughter, nephew, son-in-law, brother, or cousin, rather than devolving upon the primogeniture heir.

With a coat of arms the position is slightly different as the armiger has the right to peacefully dispose of his estate in the manner of his choosing, and that includes his coat-of-arms, provided that the disposition falls within the terms of the destination clause of the original Letters Patent.

As far as legitimacy is concerned there is a small cloud on the horizon. Under EU law (and this does effect Britain) children born out of wedlock now enjoy the same legal rights as those children of a lawful, or recognized, marriage. How this will effect titles and what is called "the Law of Arms" has yet to be fully realized-- or tested in a court of competent jurisdiction.

Heraldicly speaking it would seem logical that for purposes of cadency natural children would follow in precedence after those children born in a lawful or recognized marriage. Of course this would only apply if the natural child bore the surname of the armigerous parent. The basis of this line of reasoning is that in a marriage both parties enter into a contact, and that contract endows each party with certain expectations. One of those expectations (on the side of the wife) is that her husband's children, born of her body, will enjoy rights of inheritance superior to those children conceived and born outside of their union.

[piperdbh]

Who plans to go to the Greenville Highland Games? Has anyone been before?

I haven't been before, but just might make the trek this year. It's about 2 hours from my wigwam.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well if they do MOR can you give any examples? As far as I know only the royal ones get recycled this way.

Claims to ordinary titles that may have been dormant or in dispute are settled by a Committee for Privileges, not by the Monarch.

Such as - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Moynihan

As to my attendance - I can only wish, subject to a pleasant Lottery win!

Rather than allow this thread to be further hijacked, let me suggest that if this is really a hot topic (and kilt related) that we cancel your post and my reply, and take up the subject in TARTANS and HERALDRY.

And for the record, yes, I can provide exmples. Also, as I understand it, the Committee for Privileges represents Her Majesty, and she gives prior approval to all decisions they make on her behalf.

But, as I suggested earlier, this is probably not the thread for this discussion.

12- 44- 9- 21-16-32 bonus number 3. I hope those work for you!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Anarchists, Monarchists, Overdressed PC wearers?


Who plans to go to the Greenville Highland Games? Has anyone been before?

I've attended for the past three years, and yes, there are a few "overdressed PC wearers" but not as many as turn up at some of the monster games. I think Matt Newsome has attended since the first Greenville Scottish Games, and I know I've seen other Xmarkers there on the day.

One of the things I like about these games is that they tend to be less "RennFair" than some, and with a bit more focus on Scottish heritage than others I've attended. They also have great music, both on the Friday night before the games and on Saturday night after the games close.

Hope you can make it on down to Greenville!