How important is the Declaration of Arbroath..

[MacBean]

Sorry, Mark, but I don't think that any Highland Scots can be included, in numbers, in your last. That is, that by the 18C there was little or no connection between Highland and Irish Scots. I cannot speak to your D of I point with any certainlty, as I cannot speak to other things related to the D of I (US) that has -- strangely (?) -- become such an important part of this thread. I can confirm, however, that within the Clanchattan the majority of folk in the 18C were Episcopalian. I don't know of any basis for your assertion that those who lived near Fort George after 1745 chose to emigrate (presumably because of their religion, or why otherwise would these facts be related?) and to become in the process Ulster Scots.

From Petty, Strathdearn, Strathnairn and the Upper Reaches of the Strathspey -- in the decades before 1776 -- many did leave, but in the main they left for the industrial sites of the south of Scotland and England or as relatively wealthy emigrees to the Americas and elsewhere. It is not recorded that they left in numbers for Ireland. In plainer words, there were no forced clearances in Clanchattan.

Are we confusing Highland Scots with Ulster Scots here?. I assure you, they are far from being the same beings in Scotland.

Sorry, I can see why I was misunderstood. I should only have spoken of my family, not of a general historical fact. I can say with fair certainty that my own family left Croy and Dalcross for Ulster, where they may have abided for a number of years before emigrating to South Carolina. Did that make them Ulster Scots, Highlanders, or Americans? They would have thought of themselves as Highlanders, while Americans called them Irish. My comment re. Ft. George is only a guess based on stories of what it was like near there, post '45; Croy is in Ft.George's backyard. Sorry if I was overly general.

[ThistleDown]

Sorry, I can see why I was misunderstood. I should only have spoken of my family, not of a general historical fact. I can say with fair certainty that my own family left Croy and Dalcross for Ulster, where they may have abided for a number of years before emigrating to South Carolina. Did that make them Ulster Scots, Highlanders, or Americans? They would have thought of themselves as Highlanders, while Americans called them Irish. My comment re. Ft. George is only a guess based on stories of what it was like near there, post '45; Croy is in Ft.George's backyard. Sorry if I was overly general.

We may be off on a tangent here and at the risk of the OP asking us to cease and desist: yes, I understand. I wonder, however, if your family left Petty for Ulster or spent time elsewhere before making that move? Ulster was "planted" long before the rebellions of the late 17C and early 18C.

This is fairly important because prior to your bringing this up we have nothing that indicates a direct connection between the two, whereas we have a mass of correspondence and documentation of movement throughout the 18C to everywhere but Ulster. Certainly, that knowledge is not family-specific and that's what makes your information fascinating.

Did your family spend more than "a number of years" in Ulster? That is, a generation or two or three? To bring this back to the thread, if they were long in Ulster they would have thought of themselves as Irish, not as Highland Scots, and would, I hesitate to say, have had no knowledge whatsoever of a Scots document called the Declaration of Arbroath.

With even greater hesitancy I will say that I strongly doubt the vast majority of Highland Scots knew of its existence and only the very learned Irish at that time. The nastiness of day-to-day survival in both places kept thoughts a bit more focused for most, I think.

[macwilkin]

To bring this back to the thread, if they were long in Ulster they would have thought of themselves as Irish, not as Highland Scots, and would, I hesitate to say, have had no knowledge whatsoever of a Scots document called the Declaration of Arbroath.

Whilst it is true that the Ulster-Scots were known as "Irish" in North America before the mass migration of the Southern Irish beginning in the 1840s, I think it's important to point out that such a reference does not imply that the Ulster-Scots were assimilated into the culture & society of the Catholic Irish. In fact, the Ulster-Scots would have viewed their RC Irish neighbours in much the same way as they viewed the Indians on the Frontier -- as savages.

James Leyburn, in his excellent history The Scotch-Irish: a Social History discusses how the Scots-Irish were a "covenant people", similar to the Boers of South Africa or the New England Puritans who viewed themselves as a reborn Children of Israel, and remained very clannish when it came to outsiders, save fellow Protestants.

Indeed, one of the most famous American frontiersman, David Crockett, was descended from French Huguenots who fled to the British Isles -- their surname was originally de la Croquetagne. German Palatines were also accepted; a friend of mine with the surname of Herren has traced his ancestors to Ulster where the settled after fleeing the Continent.

T.

[Lallans]

Some of the groups that emigrated to America were Covenenters. Some, and I submit most, were not. They were the usual cultural and economic refugees. The Ulster Scots who remained in Ulster were not covenenters. Almost at once, the British had to pass laws to prevent the intermarriage of Ulster Scots with Irish in Ulster, and that was one of the first things that the Ulster Scots forcefully and successfully demanded be overturned. My extended family in NI currently has so much native Irish blood and culture, and they of ours, as to be indistingishable from each other- except of course to each other by local tradition. And yet the legends continue and the conflict goes on, more or less. And the Brit Upperclass that created all this looks on distainfully. There is a lot of hope that the EU will make a positive, lasting,and final difference- and here's to that.

[macwilkin]

Some of the groups that emigrated to America were Covenenters. Some, and I submit most, were not. They were the usual cultural and economic refugees. The Ulster Scots who remained in Ulster were not covenenters. Almost at once, the British had to pass laws to prevent the intermarriage of Ulster Scots with Irish in Ulster, and that was one of the first things that the Ulster Scots forcefully and successfully demanded be overturned. My extended family in NI currently has so much native Irish blood and culture, and they of ours, as to be indistingishable from each other- except of course to each other by local tradition. And yet the legends continue and the conflict goes on, more or less. And the Brit Upperclass that created all this looks on distainfully. There is a lot of hope that the EU will make a positive, lasting,and final difference- and here's to that.

Interesting...I have friends who are recent immigrants from NI to the US, and they way they talk, there still is a fairly large divide between the two communities in terms of intermarriage and interaction. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and I would daresay that your family is more typical today than when the large migrations from Ulster began in the early 1700s. Again, Leyburn's references were more historical in nature.

T.

[Lallans]

There is the perceived and there is the real. In NI, for better or worse, mostly for worse, perception IS reality, that is for sure.

[auld argonian]

Thistledown, the OP is most definitely not going to protest to the turns that this thread has taken. As was mentioned earlier, this is a very interesting exploration of the subject and the tangents are all pretty pertinent. I initially asked to hear from the Native Scots only because I was interested in knowing whether the DoA was important to them in a "living" way or if it was just history. Obviously, a lot of the diaspora feel inspired by it but I felt that they had a more indirect contact with it as opposed to those still living in the "Old Country".

Ladies and gents, by all means, play on! I'm learning a lot here.

Best

AA

[ThistleDown]

Thistledown, the OP is most definitely not going to protest to the turns that this thread has taken. As was mentioned earlier, this is a very interesting exploration of the subject and the tangents are all pretty pertinent. I initially asked to hear from the Native Scots only because I was interested in knowing whether the DoA was important to them in a "living" way or if it was just history. Obviously, a lot of the diaspora feel inspired by it but I felt that they had a more indirect contact with it as opposed to those still living in the "Old Country".

Ladies and gents, by all means, play on! I'm learning a lot here.

Best

AA

Thank you, AA. Then I will repeat what I said earlier: the Arbroath has little relevance to the majority of Scots today, and even less to Highlanders who are pretty involved in the intricacies of daily life. Yes, there is a symbolic political importance for some Scots, but I don't think "inspired by it" accurately describes their feeling as it may do for those generations-removed from Scotland -- and perhaps even longer from the Highlands.

[ThistleDown]

Interesting...I have friends who are recent immigrants from NI to the US, and they way they talk, there still is a fairly large divide between the two communities in terms of intermarriage and interaction. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and I would daresay that your family is more typical today than when the large migrations from Ulster began in the early 1700s.

That is my understanding, as well. I lived in Ireland (Kilkenny, so not NI) for 5 years in the early 60s. That was prior to the deep next round of troubles up there, but we knew of the cultural separation between the native folk and those who were still considered as incomers centuries after they became residents.

In an earlier post, Todd, I did not mean to imply that the plantation folk thought of themselves as "Irish" as in natives, but that they had no connection or communication with their former homeland and, if they did think of themselves as Scots, they did not think of themselves as Highland Scots. The Gaelic was quickly lost, even among those who came in from the Southern Isles.