How important is the Declaration of Arbroath..

[Lallans]

Some of the groups that emigrated to America were Covenenters. Some, and I submit most, were not. They were the usual cultural and economic refugees. The Ulster Scots who remained in Ulster were not covenenters. Almost at once, the British had to pass laws to prevent the intermarriage of Ulster Scots with Irish in Ulster, and that was one of the first things that the Ulster Scots forcefully and successfully demanded be overturned. My extended family in NI currently has so much native Irish blood and culture, and they of ours, as to be indistingishable from each other- except of course to each other by local tradition. And yet the legends continue and the conflict goes on, more or less. And the Brit Upperclass that created all this looks on distainfully. There is a lot of hope that the EU will make a positive, lasting,and final difference- and here's to that.

[macwilkin]

Some of the groups that emigrated to America were Covenenters. Some, and I submit most, were not. They were the usual cultural and economic refugees. The Ulster Scots who remained in Ulster were not covenenters. Almost at once, the British had to pass laws to prevent the intermarriage of Ulster Scots with Irish in Ulster, and that was one of the first things that the Ulster Scots forcefully and successfully demanded be overturned. My extended family in NI currently has so much native Irish blood and culture, and they of ours, as to be indistingishable from each other- except of course to each other by local tradition. And yet the legends continue and the conflict goes on, more or less. And the Brit Upperclass that created all this looks on distainfully. There is a lot of hope that the EU will make a positive, lasting,and final difference- and here's to that.

Interesting...I have friends who are recent immigrants from NI to the US, and they way they talk, there still is a fairly large divide between the two communities in terms of intermarriage and interaction. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and I would daresay that your family is more typical today than when the large migrations from Ulster began in the early 1700s. Again, Leyburn's references were more historical in nature.

T.

[Lallans]

There is the perceived and there is the real. In NI, for better or worse, mostly for worse, perception IS reality, that is for sure.

[auld argonian]

Thistledown, the OP is most definitely not going to protest to the turns that this thread has taken. As was mentioned earlier, this is a very interesting exploration of the subject and the tangents are all pretty pertinent. I initially asked to hear from the Native Scots only because I was interested in knowing whether the DoA was important to them in a "living" way or if it was just history. Obviously, a lot of the diaspora feel inspired by it but I felt that they had a more indirect contact with it as opposed to those still living in the "Old Country".

Ladies and gents, by all means, play on! I'm learning a lot here.

Best

AA

[ThistleDown]

Thistledown, the OP is most definitely not going to protest to the turns that this thread has taken. As was mentioned earlier, this is a very interesting exploration of the subject and the tangents are all pretty pertinent. I initially asked to hear from the Native Scots only because I was interested in knowing whether the DoA was important to them in a "living" way or if it was just history. Obviously, a lot of the diaspora feel inspired by it but I felt that they had a more indirect contact with it as opposed to those still living in the "Old Country".

Ladies and gents, by all means, play on! I'm learning a lot here.

Best

AA

Thank you, AA. Then I will repeat what I said earlier: the Arbroath has little relevance to the majority of Scots today, and even less to Highlanders who are pretty involved in the intricacies of daily life. Yes, there is a symbolic political importance for some Scots, but I don't think "inspired by it" accurately describes their feeling as it may do for those generations-removed from Scotland -- and perhaps even longer from the Highlands.

[macwilkin]

In an earlier post, Todd, I did not mean to imply that the plantation folk thought of themselves as "Irish" as in natives, but that they had no connection or communication with their former homeland and, if they did think of themselves as Scots, they did not think of themselves as Highland Scots. The Gaelic was quickly lost, even among those who came in from the Southern Isles.

Rex,

My apologies; I should have been a bit more clear in making that explanation for general purposes. In the US, there is a common myth that to be "Scots-Irish" is to be half-Scottish, half-Irish, and is still quite common, so that you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!

Of course, we're drifting towards "The Troubles" now, so I'll try to reign my thoughts in.

T.

[ThistleDown]

Rex,

My apologies; I should have been a bit more clear in making that explanation for general purposes. In the US, there is a common myth that to be "Scots-Irish" is to be half-Scottish, half-Irish, and is still quite common, so that you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!

Of course, we're drifting towards "The Troubles" now, so I'll try to reign my thoughts in.

T.

Ahhhh, says he as the light brightens. Thank you, Todd. Well explained. In Scotland we look across the water to the NA continent and see much of that "romantic mythology" you refer to. The extreme value of this forum is that -- sometimes -- myths can be separated from realities to everyone's acceptance and benefit.

Rex

[macwilkin]

Ahhhh, says he as the light brightens. Thank you, Todd. Well explained. In Scotland we look across the water to the NA continent and see much of that "romantic mythology" you refer to. The extreme value of this forum is that -- sometimes -- myths can be separated from realities to everyone's acceptance and benefit.

Rex

Indeed, Rex. I dealt with it on an almost daily basis when working as a genealogy librarian at my local public library.

T.

[Lallans]

Rex,

(snip)you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!
(snip)
T.

OMG, they're on the wrong track there! But how to inform them without making them militant in the other direction?...? Better leave well enough alone unless they start contributing to the "Widows and Orphans Funds" AKA the "Making Widows and Orphans Funds" -which now that I've said it are supposedly things of the past.

And yes, the Scots Irish migration included Hugenots, Border English, and other protestant groups who had sought refuge in Ulster. There aren't many heroes of the Frontier and Wild West era who were not descendants of them. They say Boone was not but I think that just needs work.

[macwilkin]

OMG, they're on the wrong track there! But how to inform them without making them militant in the other direction?...? Better leave well enough alone unless they start contributing to the "Widows and Orphans Funds" AKA the "Making Widows and Orphans Funds" -which now that I've said it are supposedly things of the past.

And yes, the Scots Irish migration included Hugenots, Border English, and other protestant groups who had sought refuge in Ulster. There aren't many heroes of the Frontier and Wild West era who were not descendants of them. They say Boone was not but I think that just needs work.

Boone was of English Quaker stock, although his neighbors were certainly of Ulster-Scots blood, although as we've already discussed, to be "Scots-Irish" is to really be a mixture of different ethnic groups. Also, The Scots-Irish were an "invisible" immigrant group that quickly became Americans as soon as they began to push west, thus confirming somewhat Turner's Frontier Thesis of American history.

T.