Norman Question

[figheadair]

Could someone please provide me with the list of the Scottish clans of Norman origins (Normandy, France).

Thank you,

Robert

It's more a case of which clan names rather than the clans themselves. If one accepts that in reality not all of the name could possible be actually descended from a single source, as opposed to having come under the sway, protection etc of the laird, then there will have been indigenous families whose land changed hands and at sometime a Norman-French nobel gain the land title. They then became his vassel and the laird's family over generations became local. And so to the list:

Bruce
Bissett
Elliot (poss)
Grant
Hamilton
Hay
Menzies
Montgomerie
Sinclair

and many more, especially amongst the Lowland familes.

[McElmurry]

I have been reading a bit about Robert FitzGerald de ADAIR of Limerick who killed the White Night and then departed for Scotland. Once in Scotland he is reported to have killed a fellow named Currie who the King disfavored and Adair ended up with Currie’s holdings near Galloway. Adair is listed as a sept of Maxwell. The FitzGeralds came from Normandy with William and then on to Ireland a century or so later with Strongbow. While not a Scottish Clan the FitzGeralds are reported to be quite numerous in Ireland. Robert was a second son and was out to, quite literally, make a name for himself.

I have no idea if any of this is actually true.

[figheadair]

It's more a case of which clan names rather than the clans themselves. If one accepts that in reality not all of the name could possible be actually descended from a single source, as opposed to having come under the sway, protection etc of the laird, then there will have been indigenous families whose land changed hands and at sometime a Norman-French nobel gain the land title. They then became his vassel and the laird's family over generations became local. And so to the list:

Bruce
Bissett
Elliot (poss)
Grant
Hamilton
Hay
Menzies
Montgomerie
Sinclair

and many more, especially amongst the Lowland familes.

Oh and Fraser of course!

[macwilkin]

Oh and Fraser of course!

And as already mentioned, the Comyns/Cummings, who reportedly take their name from the town of Comines, which is along the modern Franco-Belgian border.

T.

[muirkirkca]

I was told recently that Grant is derived from de Grande from someone who looked into his genealogy.

[Ancienne Alliance]

This is very helpful , gentlemen.

I really appreciate your scholarship.


Best,

Robert

[Rollo]

About Comyn:

The origin of the surname Comyn and Cumming (in relation to this clan) is disputed. It is thought that the name may be derived from the a Celtic personal name derived from the element cam (meaning "bent" or "crooked". These names were relatively frequent in Norfolk, Lincolnshire, and Yorkshire in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, possibly due to the influx of Breton immigrants following the Norman Conquest of England.. A second theory is that the name derives from the Counts of Comminges and one of their younger descendants who came to Britain with William the Conqueror. A third theory is that the name is derived from a place name Comines near Lille, France.[1]In reality, some evidence may be found by means of the techniques developed by Mrs B Platts, Scottish Hazard, Vol 1, 1985, Vol II, 1990 and A. Hardie-Stoffeln, The Rise of Flemish Families in Scotland (available on Google) based upon an analysis of heraldry, namely, the armorial bearings. The armorial bearings of John Comyn, assassinated by Robert Bruce in 1306 as based upon an official seal which exists in the collection of the Lord Lyon of Scotland, and currently used by the chief of the Cumming clan, appear to be derived from the arms of the Campdevene family who were Counts of St Pol in the 11 century. The county of St Pol included at that time the contemporary town of Comines within its boundaries. More particularly, the arms of John Comyn are identical with those used by Hugues Campdeveine, Seigneur de Beauval in the 12 century which was within the boundaries of the county of St Pol ( located now in the Somme, in France). This exact coincidence of the current arms of the head of the Cumming family based upon those used by the Competitor, John Comyn in the 13-14 century with those of the Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval, (3 clumps of golden barley on a background of blue azur) appear to constitute in both cases a differentiation of the original arms of the Campdevene (Champ d'avoine - field of barley, in contemporary French ) family, Counts of St Pol, namely, one clump of gold barley on a background of blue azur. (easily visible in Armorials and on documents available through a Google search - under the campdevene family - counts of St Pol: arms and Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval). More generally, this analysis of the armorial bearings of the current Clan Chief, the Competitor for the John Comyn, Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval and the Counts of St Pol corresponds with the more general hypothesis of Platts and Hardie-Stoffeln: that is, origins of some of the leading families in Scotland during the period following the Norman conquest in England were Flemish and not either Celtic or Norman. Finally, at present, there is no genetic evidence to sustain the claim that the original Comyns or Cumming family and their descendants were primarily Celtic.

In Scottish Gaelic, the name is rendered "Cuimeanach" or "Cuimein".

Origin of the clan
This clan is believed to descend from Robert of Comyn, a companion of William the Conqueror who accompanied him in his conquest of England. Shortly after his participation in the Battle of Hastings, Robert was made Earl of Northumberland, and, when David I came to Scotland to claim his throne, Richard Comyn, the grandson of Robert, was among the Norman knights that followed him.

Richard Comyn quickly gained land and influence in Scotland through an advantageous marriage to the granddaughter of the former Scottish king Donald III, Hextilda of Tynedale. Richard's descendants continued the Comyns' rise to power through marriage, and, at the close of the thirteenth century, the Comyns were the most powerful clan in Scotland, members of which were holding (or had held) at one time thirteen Scottish earldoms, including those of Buchan, Menteith, and Angus, and lordships including the Lordship of Badenoch. The Lords of Badenoch represented the chief line of the clan and ruled their vast lands from their impregnable island stronghold of Lochindorb Castle.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Merci, cher ami.


Bien à vous,

Robert

[macwilkin]

About Comyn:

The origin of the surname Comyn and Cumming (in relation to this clan) is disputed. It is thought that the name may be derived from the a Celtic personal name derived from the element cam (meaning "bent" or "crooked". These names were relatively frequent in Norfolk, Lincolnshire, and Yorkshire in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, possibly due to the influx of Breton immigrants following the Norman Conquest of England.. A second theory is that the name derives from the Counts of Comminges and one of their younger descendants who came to Britain with William the Conqueror. A third theory is that the name is derived from a place name Comines near Lille, France.[1]In reality, some evidence may be found by means of the techniques developed by Mrs B Platts, Scottish Hazard, Vol 1, 1985, Vol II, 1990 and A. Hardie-Stoffeln, The Rise of Flemish Families in Scotland (available on Google) based upon an analysis of heraldry, namely, the armorial bearings. The armorial bearings of John Comyn, assassinated by Robert Bruce in 1306 as based upon an official seal which exists in the collection of the Lord Lyon of Scotland, and currently used by the chief of the Cumming clan, appear to be derived from the arms of the Campdevene family who were Counts of St Pol in the 11 century. The county of St Pol included at that time the contemporary town of Comines within its boundaries. More particularly, the arms of John Comyn are identical with those used by Hugues Campdeveine, Seigneur de Beauval in the 12 century which was within the boundaries of the county of St Pol ( located now in the Somme, in France). This exact coincidence of the current arms of the head of the Cumming family based upon those used by the Competitor, John Comyn in the 13-14 century with those of the Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval, (3 clumps of golden barley on a background of blue azur) appear to constitute in both cases a differentiation of the original arms of the Campdevene (Champ d'avoine - field of barley, in contemporary French ) family, Counts of St Pol, namely, one clump of gold barley on a background of blue azur. (easily visible in Armorials and on documents available through a Google search - under the campdevene family - counts of St Pol: arms and Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval). More generally, this analysis of the armorial bearings of the current Clan Chief, the Competitor for the John Comyn, Hugues, Seigneur de Beauval and the Counts of St Pol corresponds with the more general hypothesis of Platts and Hardie-Stoffeln: that is, origins of some of the leading families in Scotland during the period following the Norman conquest in England were Flemish and not either Celtic or Norman. Finally, at present, there is no genetic evidence to sustain the claim that the original Comyns or Cumming family and their descendants were primarily Celtic.

In Scottish Gaelic, the name is rendered "Cuimeanach" or "Cuimein".

Origin of the clan
This clan is believed to descend from Robert of Comyn, a companion of William the Conqueror who accompanied him in his conquest of England. Shortly after his participation in the Battle of Hastings, Robert was made Earl of Northumberland, and, when David I came to Scotland to claim his throne, Richard Comyn, the grandson of Robert, was among the Norman knights that followed him.

Richard Comyn quickly gained land and influence in Scotland through an advantageous marriage to the granddaughter of the former Scottish king Donald III, Hextilda of Tynedale. Richard's descendants continued the Comyns' rise to power through marriage, and, at the close of the thirteenth century, the Comyns were the most powerful clan in Scotland, members of which were holding (or had held) at one time thirteen Scottish earldoms, including those of Buchan, Menteith, and Angus, and lordships including the Lordship of Badenoch. The Lords of Badenoch represented the chief line of the clan and ruled their vast lands from their impregnable island stronghold of Lochindorb Castle.

Many thanks for posting that -- is there a source for this information? As President of the Clan Cumming Society, I am always on the lookout for reliable sources. I would also recommend you to the brief history of the Clan, written by our society historian, Xmarker Scotus:

http://clancumming.us/short_history.php

And finally, one of the best sources on the Comyns/Cummings is Alan Young's Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314 (Tuckwell Press, 1998).

Regardsm

Todd

[Rollo]

Thanks for this link, Todd.
I found these notations in wikipedia, I thinck !