HRH at Greenville Games

[Peter C.]

C'mon Peter, McD's was symbolic. Take a good look at the young life of Charles to get my point about a bubble. And I SAID that the young Royals have left it.

And see, if Edward had only worn a kilt this whole line of discussion would never have come up.

I love McD's fries.

You are right about Charles, but that was a long time ago. Things have changed quite a bit. I sometimes wonder, if the youngsters are given a free rein, will they be able to toe the line when it is time to reign?

I'm glad he didn't wear a kilt, I'm enjoying this discussion

Peter

[McClef]

In much of the English speaking world there is an assumption that only people with titles are noble. This is of course wrong-- No one would doubt that Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, is noble. However, neither of her children have titles. Are they somehow "not noble" even though they are eligible to inherit the throne of their Grandmother, the Queen? (They rank 10th and 11th in the line of succession.) No, they are not. They each bear the Royal Arms quartered with those of their father, Mark Phillips, along with the helmet appropriate to their rank and a crest. Clearly they are noble.

As I recall, it was George V who restricted the royal titles of Prince and Princess to grandchildren of a monarch descended only from the male line. Anne's children therefore did not qualify as their principal rank is taken from their father (the same applies to the children of the late Princess Margaret.)

They are thus (even were they to be given a title) "commoners" but even nobles are "commoners" under our system. The late Queen Mother, although the daughter of an Earl, was still a commoner until she acquired royal status through her marriage. Royal status conferred upon marriage can be taken away, as we saw with Diana and Sarah Ferguson, if the marriage is dissolved but the children, as grandchildren of the Monarch through the male line are not affected by a change in status of their mother. No title was conferred upon Mark Phillips thus Peter and Zara have no title, it was, however conferred upon Anthony Armstong-Jones who became Lord Snowdon and thus his children have titles derived from him.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

No title was conferred upon Mark Phillips thus Peter and Zara have no title...

Actually, Mr. Phillips declined the offer of a title (earl) and it was at the express request of HRH The Princess Royal that no titles were granted to her children. But you're right, they are untitled nobles.

Who is, and more importantly who is not, a member of the Royal family is determined by Her Majesty, and by Her Majesty, alone (within the confines of the act of settlement). Likewise Her Majesty, as the font of all honours, may ennoble-- or degrade-- an individual in their title by her own mere motion. Thus after a divorce a Royal may be deprived of Royal status, and thereby forfeit the right to use HRH in front of their title.

I know what you are driving at, but I think it somewhat misleading when you refer to Her Majesty the Queen Mother as being a commoner prior to her marrying into the Royal Family and thus acquiring royal status. As the daughter of an earl she retained all of the prerogatives of nobility, including the style of "Lady". True, as the daughter of an earl she was eligible to seek elective office and if successful take her seat in the lower house of parliament, but this concession in the electoral laws did not take from her her noble status.

As nobiliary practice relates to Mr. Mark Phillips and Mr. Anthony Armstrong-Jones, as far as I am aware Mr. Phillip's family was non-armigerous, thus he was not noble, hence he was a commoner by most definitions. Mr. Anthony Armstrong-Jones did come from an armigerous family, and was armigerous himself prior to wedding HRH Princess Margaret, thus he was noble, and most certainly not a commoner. That he was given an earldom (Snowdon) on his wedding day merely elevated him to the status of the titled nobility (and, in my opinion, was a much better wedding present than a new pop-up toaster!). Snowdon's children, by the way, rank 12th and 13th in line for the throne, right after the children of Princess Anne-- that hardly makes them common.