Tunes of Glory?

[BobsYourUncle]

Let the debate continue:

Here is a still from the film, showing the tartan:



Hear is a pic of Hunting/Brown Scott:

[macwilkin]

Not so fast, Bob! There is a thread over at Bob Dunsire discussing the TOG tartan; a member who has a swatch of the original material states that Kenny Dalgleish of DC Dalgleish ID'ed the tartan as Brown Scott, so I'm not going to haul down my colours to you just yet. ;-)

T.

[davidlpope]

Sorry Todd, close but no cigar. The Scott tartan is probably the closest registered tartan, but, in fact, the tartan used in Tunes of Glory was a one-off made for the film. !

Bob, can you provide the source for your assertion that the tartan used was a one-off? I am strongly convinced that the tartan used in the film is Modern Brown Scott. Here's a list of previous discussions where it was all hashed out:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-55233/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-50094/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-47472/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-36587/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-23904/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-28530/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-23904/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...uinness-27071/
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-glory-10069/

The Search function really is an amazing feature. Perhaps we should create a subforum devoted solely to this excellent movie, since it seems that about every six months someone "discovers" it for themselves and starts a new thread....

Cordially,

David

[macwilkin]

Bob, can you provide the source for your assertion that the tartan used was a one-off? I am strongly convinced that the tartan used in the film is Modern Brown Scott.

Bob cited the interview with ToG director Ronald Neame* on the Criterion Collection DVD; I noted last night in the thread on Dunsire I mentioned that another piper once asked Neame at his 90th birthday party about the tartan; he replied that "I think it was made specially for the film."

Just a hypothesis here, but given the fact he was remembering an event that took place in 1960, while I'm not questioning Neame's memory, could it be that the Brown Scott tartan was chosen for the movie? I know for years it was stated that the "Mitchell" tartan was designed specifically for the USAF Pipe Band (in honour of General Billy Mitchell), yet it has also been suggested that a tartan merchant slapped the name "Mitchell" onto a set that was already claimed by the Galbraiths, Russells and Hunters.

Whatever the story, I rather like the Brown Scott tartan, and while I normally wouldn't wear a tartan without a personal connection, in this case, I might just make an exception.

*RIP 16 June 2010

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A film like TUNES OF GLORY is made in four stages:

(1) SET UP this is when the producers dial in the script and attach the various performers, directors, camera, and craftsmen to the film project.
(2) PRE-PRODUCTION puts everyone on the payroll, builds the sets, sorts the costumes rehearses the cast, and takes care of any last minute glitches.
(3) PRODUCTION is all of the time spent in front of the cameras, which can be anything from a few weeks to several years depending on the complexity of the story.
(4) POST-PRODUCTION in it's simplest terms means editing the film footage into a cohesive narrative (in other words making sure the picture has a logical beginning, middle, and end).

The entire process of making a film is constrained by two things: the total budget the studio has allotted the producer for the project, and the amount of time available to the producer to complete steps 2-4. Film making is not a leisurely process, and frankly on a small budget film like Tunes of Glory the producer probably wouldn't have wasted time or money on a special weave of tartan-- his costume designer would have selected something readily available, checked with the set designer and the director of photography to make sure the fabric would "work" on camera, and would then schedule fittings for everyone who would be kilted in the film.

What the costume designer wouldn't have done was sit down, design a tartan, have it woven, then have kilts made.

So, if it's the consensus of well-informed opinion on XMTS that the regiment is wearing brown Scott tartan-- well, that's good enough for me.

[macwilkin]

A film like TUNES OF GLORY is made in four stages:

(1) SET UP this is when the producers dial in the script and attach the various performers, directors, camera, and craftsmen to the film project.
(2) PRE-PRODUCTION puts everyone on the payroll, builds the sets, sorts the costumes rehearses the cast, and takes care of any last minute glitches.
(3) PRODUCTION is all of the time spent in front of the cameras, which can be anything from a few weeks to several years depending on the complexity of the story.
(4) POST-PRODUCTION in it's simplest terms means editing the film footage into a cohesive narrative (in other words making sure the picture has a logical beginning, middle, and end).

The entire process of making a film is constrained by two things: the total budget the studio has allotted the producer for the project, and the amount of time available to the producer to complete steps 2-4. Film making is not a leisurely process, and frankly on a small budget film like Tunes of Glory the producer probably wouldn't have wasted time or money on a special weave of tartan-- his costume designer would have selected something readily available, checked with the set designer and the director of photography to make sure the fabric would "work" on camera, and would then schedule fittings for everyone who would be kilted in the film.

What the costume designer wouldn't have done was sit down, design a tartan, have it woven, then have kilts made.

So, if it's the consensus of well-informed opinion on XMTS that the regiment is wearing brown Scott tartan-- well, that's good enough for me.

I think this stands to reason.

T.

[BobsYourUncle]

A film like TUNES OF GLORY is made in four stages:

(1) SET UP this is when the producers dial in the script and attach the various performers, directors, camera, and craftsmen to the film project.
(2) PRE-PRODUCTION puts everyone on the payroll, builds the sets, sorts the costumes rehearses the cast, and takes care of any last minute glitches.
(3) PRODUCTION is all of the time spent in front of the cameras, which can be anything from a few weeks to several years depending on the complexity of the story.
(4) POST-PRODUCTION in it's simplest terms means editing the film footage into a cohesive narrative (in other words making sure the picture has a logical beginning, middle, and end).

The entire process of making a film is constrained by two things: the total budget the studio has allotted the producer for the project, and the amount of time available to the producer to complete steps 2-4. Film making is not a leisurely process, and frankly on a small budget film like Tunes of Glory the producer probably wouldn't have wasted time or money on a special weave of tartan-- his costume designer would have selected something readily available, checked with the set designer and the director of photography to make sure the fabric would "work" on camera, and would then schedule fittings for everyone who would be kilted in the film.

What the costume designer wouldn't have done was sit down, design a tartan, have it woven, then have kilts made.

So, if it's the consensus of well-informed opinion on XMTS that the regiment is wearing brown Scott tartan-- well, that's good enough for me.

I am afraid the logic herein is unassailable. The most credible part of the story of the movie's production is that the A&SH and MOD prohibited the use of any actual Army tartan or emblem. That does not automatically translate into the design of an original tartan for the movie. I would agree that Neame's recollection may well have been faulty--and yet he was the director. One should be wary of dismissing the evidence of witnesses in favor of mere logic--I would take Director Neame's evidence over most other sources. However, I will observe that comparing the tartan as depicted in the film with Brown Scott, as was done in the Dunsire thread and shown in Post # 11 in this thread, it looks quite like a match. At this juncture in the discussion, I move from believer to agnostic. Without better evidence for either proposition, I am not convinced that either is proven.

Now what I would really like is a good, clean photo showing detail as to the cap badge...

[macwilkin]

Bob,

I certainly wasn't advocating that we discount Naeme entirely; however, as a historian I was taught to never depend on just one source, and to consider possible factors to place a primary source in context. However, the one post from the piper who asked Kenny Dalgleish, a man whose business is to know tartans, seems to confirm that it is Brown Scott. Such an observation, if legitimate, certainly would confirm what Rathdown has said about the adoption of the tartan.

It is interesting to note, btw, that Jock's swipe that "Cock O' The North" is a "cheesy tune" was also Kennaway's personal dig at his old regiment, from which he reportedly took his inspiration.

T.

[auld argonian]

I'm laughing out loud about Todd's reference to Jock's line about "Cock O' The North"...

...whenever anyone suggests a tune that I don't like, I can be caught saying. "Yon's a cheesy tune; you'll no play that." and then looking at the wall of blank expressions from the people that never saw the movie...

Ah, in-jokes!

Best

AA

[Woot22]

I'm laughing out loud about Todd's reference to Jock's line about "Cock O' The North"...

...whenever anyone suggests a tune that I don't like, I can be caught saying. "Yon's a cheesy tune; you'll no play that." and then looking at the wall of blank expressions from the people that never saw the movie...

Ah, in-jokes!

Best

AA

One of my favorite lines from that movie as well. Always makes me chuckle when he says that considering how serious the mood of the movie is at that moment.