Questions on the Newsome 4yrd Box Pleat or 8yrd Knife Pleat?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I wouldn't say that anyone is overly defensive of the box pleated kilt. However, when you are going to wear a style of kilt that is different from the norm, it does behoove you to be informed about it, so that when someone asks you, "Hey, how come your pleats look different than everyone else's?" you can give them an intelligent answer.

I, for one, don't really care much whether a person wears box pleated kilts, knife pleated kilts, kilts with both kinds of pleats (like the Kingussie kilts), is made with four yards, six yards, or eight yards. They all are fine kilts, in my opinion. I want someone to wear the kilt that he likes and will get enjoyment from!

I would say that most people who order box pleated kilts (at least those clients I deal with), understand that it is not the current norm for kilt fashion. Indeed, a lot of people I make kilts for find me specifically because they are seeking out a maker of four yard box pleated kilts. They have read about it in their research, or have seen someone else wearing one, and then seek out a kilt maker who offers it (most don't). So they know what it is they are getting and have decided that is the style that they want; and they have specifically sought out someone who can supply it.

I have yet to meet anyone who is under the impression that the Highlands of Scotland are currently populated with four yard box pleated kilt wearing throw-backs. I doubt anyone suffers from that illusion.

I do think what people (myself included) have a negative reaction to are certain people constantly pointing out that this style of kilt is not the recognized norm in Scotland. It is not because we would disagree with that statement, or that we think it takes away from the validity of the kilt style.

Rather, it is that no one is suggesting that it is the recognized norm for kilts in Scotland -- or anywhere else for that matter. People who make and/or wear four yard box pleated kilts recognize (and some revel in) the fact that it is a revivalist style and outside of the current kilt fashion norm.

Imagine someone growing up in a family of Ford owners who decides to buy himself a Chevy. He did his research, weighed the factors, and decided that was the car he wanted. He likes his new car, and he's fine with the fact that it's not a Ford. But at each and every family get together certain people feel obligated to remind him that this is "a Ford family" and "we don't drive Chevies." It would wear a bit thin after a while, no?

And the "reminds me of a school girl's skirt" comments seem particularly derisive. In many of our experiences the only time we hear "school girl" comments are from people who are completely ignorant of Highland Dress traditions and think they will have some fun making insulting comments about "the guy wearing the skirt." This is irrespective of pleating style. To hear these same comments from fellow kilt wearers on a forum dedicated to kilt wearing just seems out of place.

Not everyone is going to be a fan of the four yard box pleated kilt. That's fine. You don't have to be. But I would hope that one would be able to express that opinion in a way that would not be insulting those whose opinion differs.

[MacLowlife]

I have just finished a lengthy comment in another thread and it seems to me the same point applies here. This is a Community of Kiltwearers and, as such, the level of knowledge and appreciation is far different here from the average person on the street anywhere in the world. Any debate ought to recognize that we are far more likely to encounter someone who is ignorant of the Ways of the Kilt than someone who knows as much as we do. And any discussion that misses that point is sadly deficient.

I do not live in Scotland, but I have visited more than once and I recall seeing maybe three kilt wearers- a piper, a Young Punk wearing his over jeans with a leather jacket, and surely one more who I can't remember after all of these years. That in three trips in three decades, covering many cities and towns and the spaces between.

It is said that there are nearly as many Irish people in Chicago as in all of Ireland and I daresay that there are more kilt wearers outside of Scotland than in- and, by the way, far more non-kilt wearers in Scotland than wearers. So, while my Scots brothers are correct that the box pleat is not their tradition, someone else correctly observed that the average person (most likely in Scotland too) can't tell a box pleat from a knife pleat and only sees a man in a plaid garment that stops at his knees.

I have to admit, I have worn a woman's skirt turned around to close like a man's kilt. Do you honestly believe most of the people who saw me recognized what I had done? Or that they gave me credit for taking the trouble to make it close in the manly way? Sure, one kilt owning friend noticed and called me out on it, but many more have missed the difference or politely kept quiet. And that in a room full of kilts.

There have been times and places where a man in pleated trousers was ridiculed- and others where a man with no pleats suffered the same abuse. I think it is a very good thing to discuss and debate the finer points, but as the Nannies of Old used to say "It's YOU they want to see, not your clothes."

I expect several posters here wish they could add the right wink or nudge to their opinions, to make sure no offense was implied or inferred. And I expect at least one poster who meant it when he typed it wishes he had thought a minute longer first. I thank you all for your thoughts and for your interest.

The OP wanted to know about box pleated kilts. I hope he was able to find the advice he needed in amongst the rhetoric.

[Slag101]

I do think that everyone is entitled to comment, and many of us over in Great Britain feel much the same about the 4 yard box pleated kilt, so I don't see why Scheilallion 's comments ( or indeed Jock's) are not as equally valid as yours.

The great thing about forums that they show a wide range of viewpoint, it's up to each us to accept the viewpoints as opinons,

The 4 yard box pleated kilt is an historic garment, not really traditional ( as we have often debated this) in the generally recognised sense.There is nothing wrong with people making it or wearing it , but as Jock and so many others say, it's not a traditional garment in Scotland.

It seems that in the States, the makers and wearers of it are overly defensive of it. I don't think anyone from Scotland has ever said they shouldn't be worn, or indeed might even have been worn a long time ago.

Jock often comments that he worries about appearing like a stuck record, I'm with him and lots of others over here in Great Britain

I think there are a couple issues here.

1. Interpretation: The way things are said in Scotland (Jock's post, etc.) may be considered commentary there, and rude in the US. There are things that are considered commentary in New Jersey, that are rude to say in Florida. This might just all be regionalization.

2. Any talk beyond the OP's question is off topic.

Let's move past people feeling like broken records, and people having hurt feelings because other people think box pleat kilts look like schoolgirl skirts. KILTS ARE SKIRTS!!! Get over it.

To quote the movie Tommy Boy, "I could stick my head up a cow's a** to get a better look at a t bone steak, but I would rather just take the butcher's word."

[Jock Scot]

Now I am fed up with this! No one from this side of the Atlantic has made any derogatory comment about box pleated kilts. NOT ONE. To us us they look like school girls skirts------- and they do. To many of you on the other side of the Atlantic they don't seem to. So what? To us there is nothing wrong with a schools girls' skirt, nothing at all! All we have ever said that the box pleated is not common over here and they do, to us, look like School girls skirts. That, it seems, is the best honest description that we over here can come up with and I really cannot see why people take exception to that.

[Sir William]

Perhaps the best way to get past the concept of the box-pleated kilt slightly resembling a school-girl's skirt it to wear the box pleat more often so that it no longer appears to be an unusual style. If more box-pleated kilts are seen they will be considered to be just another style of kilt.

I'm not overly worried about the reactions of Scots, since I only go over every few years and, following Jock's advice I keep to just one clan kilt and it just happens to be knife-pleated. Besides, as Jock has frequently stated, the Scots are too polite to make an issue of it (as they secretly smile about seeing yet another Yank tourist wearing a kilt). And if they do ask, it provides an opportunity to discuss kilts and their various styles.

I find the reactions of my fellow kilt-wearers (ie, the self-appointed kilt and/or tartan police) at the local Scottish gatherings to be more negative and rude. When I wore my double box-pleat to a dinner recently, I was "questioned" by one gentlemen, who could not be persuaded that it was a historical style of pleating. After all, everyone knows (so he said) that real kilts are knife pleated, use exactly 8 yards of fabric, and are made in Scotland.

I've got three box pleats, with another on the way. I like them and since most people don't know anything about kilts, whether I wear a box-pleat or a knife-pleat isn't an issue.

[iustus]

Many Great thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread.
Here is what I’ve gleaned from this discussion on 4yrd Bx Plt and 8yrd Knf Plt kilts in comparision.

Some have said that the 4yrd more suited to Hot and humid weather though by no means restricted to that weather as the experiments of our own XMarks scientists have investigated.

The 4yrd is more balanced in weight and is lighter as a whole, even while the tartan is 16oz fabric. For some this has an advantage on long days, standing on your feet since some feel the volume of tartan on an 8yrd kilt’s rear pulls down on the backside of your hips, working your pelvis to rotate forward. Also the 4yrd has less of a “back brace” feel to it after a day of said standing and what not.

The lesser yardage also has an economic advantage since Tartan requires a considerable commitment of resources. With the lesser yardage a custom weave tartan comes into reach of more people, which I mark as an advantage.

The 4yrd Bx Plt is not the “standard” kilt of Highland (not previously in question though good to include in this collection) and is a revival of an old dropped but not broken tradition. This aspect makes the kilt less-common in the Highland diaspora and even-less-common in the Highlands, Lowlands and the UK in general.
The less-common appearance mixed with the knowledge of kilt evolution is an attraction for some.
The less-common appearance mixed with the similarities in the remembrances of Girls School Uniforms is a detraction for some. (On this note, I can remember in my younger years being very taken by our own Field Hockey team’s skirts, which were knife pleated and a tartan of sorts, but then that had more to do with MacLowlife’s sentiment and the Old Nannies; I was much more interested in the girls… but now I’m getting off topic)

I have noted in this discussion that there is “less of the swish & swing” compared to the higher yardage kilts. Some prefer it this way, others... well prefer it other-wise.

The 8yrd Knf Plt is preferred by some in the colder months (North America "Cold" not Scotland "Cold"). My guess is this preference is related to the “back brace” affect of the higher yardage.
The 8yrd has recognition as the “standard” kilt (and I don’t just mean standard issue but this is the kilt that other kilts will be compared to).

There is the Swish & Swing.

There are other preferences for the 8yrd Knf Plt kilt though since it is the "standard" you no doubt can find them outside this thread.

A surprise to me in this discussion was brought up by davidlpope; his "hands down favorite" is a 6yrd Knf Plt by Mr. Newsome’s hand.
Interesting: some of the benefits of a lower-yardage kilt (less weight, better balance, less resources required) in a Knf Plt kilt. This actually offers a 3rd option (the 3rd increase the ease of making choices in many marketing studies).

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed their experience to this thread.

Peace,
justin

A Mhuinntir ionmhainn, gràdhaicheamaid a chéile, oir is ann bho Dhia a tha gràdh.

[davidlpope]

Iustus,

What a great recap. I think you hit all the points.

Here's a previous thread on low-yardage knife-pleats:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ge-tank-28591/

David

[Semiomniscient]

Now I am fed up with this! No one from this side of the Atlantic has made any derogatory comment about box pleated kilts. NOT ONE. To us us they look like school girls skirts------- and they do. To many of you on the other side of the Atlantic they don't seem to. So what? To us there is nothing wrong with a schools girls' skirt, nothing at all! All we have ever said that the box pleated is not common over here and they do, to us, look like School girls skirts. That, it seems, is the best honest description that we over here can come up with and I really cannot see why people take exception to that.

Oh Jock, come on--you don't see why we take exception to it? I prefer not to be compared to a little school girl when I'm in my kilt. Typically in Western culture, comparing men to women is seen as an insult. Same goes with comparing them to a cross-dresser--which kilties get often enough from ignorant sorts. We're not used to hearing those types of comments from fellow kilties and people we respect. So it's a bit frustrating and off-putting.

I don't really care whether or not you like it. I guess comparing it to a school uniform skirt might seem appropriate to you, but those skirts are knife pleated here more often than not--but I wouldn't think to make the comparison with knife-pleated kilts. It's just one of those things I guess. I've got a thick enough skin for it, and I'm not hurt. And I think I've said my peace. So I'll just move on and happily take my boxpleated kilt with me as a go.

[Jock Scot]

Semiomniscient

If you want to take it that way, my dear chap, then I suppose that there is little I can do about it, try as I might. Let us agree to differ.

[Bugbear]

The box pleated kilt is now a North American garment and the Scots have no claim to traditional say over how it is worn.