Was Tartan ever actually banned?

[macwilkin]

Todd,

Excellent point. As a Presbyterian, myself, I am always amazed at how many Presbyterian churches do a "Kirking of the Tartans" observance in which the tartans are "blessed". Knox is positively spinning in his grave!

David

That's why when our St. Andrew's Society holds our annual service at a local Presbyterian Church, we tend to focus more on the Scottish roots of the Presbyterian Church. We rotate between that church and the Episcopal parish I attend, and each service is distinct in terms of liturgy, etc.

T.

[Kilted-Marine]

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it...

And God blessed the seventh day

blessed the work of his hands...

It is more blessed to give than to receive...

I think reading though the bible we can see that - Objects, Actions, and People can be blessed

Knox can stop rolling now

[Kilted-Marine]

Your post directly exhibits the problem that Todd has raised. The genuine and authentic purpose of the "Kirking of the Tartans" was not to "bless" tartan or the "clans" that each tartan represents, but rather to motivate Americans to provide assistance to the Scots (and British more generally) during their war efforts to defeat Germany. Instead, the erroneous (albeit romantic) myth that has been created out of whole cloth has so choked out the reality that kilt-wearers, whom one would expect to be more "in the know" than the average man on the street, believe that the purpose of this observance is to "bless" tartans and "clans".

So, yes, knowing the real story is vitally important to ensure that such fallacies don't continue to exist.

David

But during the service the Tartans WERE blessed and they raised money. This tradition continues but without the money being raised.

Is your objection that:
A. People have forgot that it started to raise money
B. That Kirkin continues today
C. or something else

[macwilkin]

But during the service the Tartans WERE blessed and they raised money. This tradition continues but without the money being raised.

Is your objection that:
A. People have forgot that it started to raise money
B. That Kirkin continues today
C. or something else

I haven't seen a single source that says that Dr. Marshall blessed tartans in 1943. Years ago I wrote the NY Ave. Presbyterian Church and asked if they have any original service leaflets from the first Kirkin's, but I don't remember remember receiving one. I do have some material provided to me by a friend in the Caledonian Society of Baton Rouge, but nothing pointed to the blessing of tartans.

Remember that the word "kirk" means "church" -- by naming it the "Kirkin' of the Tartans", Marshall was calling the clans together to the kirk.

Personally, I love the service -- I just wish the legend had not taken a life of its own.

T,

[Kilted-Marine]

Personally, I love the service -- I just wish the legend had not taken a life of its own.

T,

I am not sure why it is an issue that the kirkin has taken on a life of its own. It is a wonderful celebration and time to have a gathering of the Scots, some of whom would otherwise only get to church for weddings or funerals.

I just chalk it up to a new tradition (although 70+ years old) that I hope last many many years that celebrates the bonds of family and friends and the brotherhood between Canada, USA, and our home soil Scotland

I for one am glad the new tradition did not die after WWII

[davidlpope]

But during the service the Tartans WERE blessed and they raised money. This tradition continues but without the money being raised.

Is your objection that:
A. People have forgot that it started to raise money
B. That Kirkin continues today
C. or something else

My objections are:

1. I don't believe that any tartans were "blessed" in the original "Kirkings"; so the current practice involving a long line of "clan" representatives carrying oversized tartan banners into a church sanctuary to be "blessed" is really a brigadoonery that has grown up here in the US.

2. Modern-day "Kirking of the Tartans" observances invariably attribute their origin to an erroneous myth that the "Kirking of the Tartans" was a practice that originated in Scotland after the Act of Proscription (see, this isn't completely OT) when clanspeople secreted away shredded tatters of tartan cloth which were secretly brought before a priest/minister to be "blessed", instead of the genuine and impacting origin that involves Peter Marshall.

David

[Kilted-Marine]

My objections are:

1. I don't believe that any tartans were "blessed" in the original "Kirkings"; so the current practice involving a long line of "clan" representatives carrying oversized tartan banners into a church sanctuary to be "blessed" is really a brigadoonery that has grown up here in the US.

2. Modern-day "Kirking of the Tartans" observances invariably attribute their origin to an erroneous myth that the "Kirking of the Tartans" was a practice that originated in Scotland after the Act of Proscription (see, this isn't completely OT) when clanspeople secreted away shredded tatters of tartan cloth which were secretly brought before a priest/minister to be "blessed", instead of the genuine and impacting origin that involves Peter Marshall.

David

David

I do not want to let this get into an argument so can we agree that this is just a friendly debate of facts?

In answer to #1 - YOU do not believe any tartans were blessed but there is no evidence either way as to what was done during that service - so you are not basing your understand on facts but rather on what you think may have or not have happened. In my research there is not even a copy of the original sermon.

#2 as to the (erroneous-your word) myth of a practice in Scotland years ago, there is again no evidence to prove or disprove the practice of taking a small piece of tartan to the Kirk (Church) to be blessed. So you are again basing your idea off of what you think did or did not happen

remember a lack of evidence is not evidence

[macwilkin]

Actually, Mark, I have researched the topic, and the evidence points to the Marshall origin in WWII. I have written an article on the subject, with a bibliography, which can be found on the STM website at scottishtartans.org/kirkin.htm.

I'd love to see your sources. ;-)

T.

[xman]

Mark, logically the onus is on you to prove that blessing tartans did take place not on David to prove that it did not. Until such time as proof is available such claims should be regarded as spurious.

Just proper argumentation as I understand it.

[macwilkin]

I am not sure why it is an issue that the kirkin has taken on a life of its own. It is a wonderful celebration and time to have a gathering of the Scots, some of whom would otherwise only get to church for weddings or funerals.

I just chalk it up to a new tradition (although 70+ years old) that I hope last many many years that celebrates the bonds of family and friends and the brotherhood between Canada, USA, and our home soil Scotland

I for one am glad the new tradition did not die after WWII

I never said it wasn't -- but as a historian, my job is to be as accurate as possible.

T.