James

[Old Hippie]

A recent comment by one of our Francophone brethren started me thinking about this again. There's a bit of a set-up, but I need to check my understanding.

What I *think* I know is that the Gaelic equivalent of "James" is "Seumas," pronounced more-or-less like "SHAY-oo-mass." When addressing Seumas, lenition would apply such that "Seumas" becomes "a Sheumais" which, as I understand it, would be pronounced roughly "ah HEY-oo-maish" or, if an Anglophone heard it, they might hear "Hamish."

Which causes me to wonder about naming, if names like Shamus and Hamish really come from the same root. Further, given that Hamish appears already lenited, would further lenition be applied, or would a Gaelic speaker simply say "Hamish" the way they might say "Ahmed" or "Jorge," names from another language that may defy attempts to translate them into Gaelic?

The comment that started this whole chain of association was addressing Hamish as "Monsieur Jambon" or "Mister Ham." I appreciate the implicit pun on Hamish, who's often addressed as "Ham."

Am I just thinking too much? Should I be spending more time in the Laphroaig?

:ootd:

[figheadair]

A recent comment by one of our Francophone brethren started me thinking about this again. There's a bit of a set-up, but I need to check my understanding.

What I *think* I know is that the Gaelic equivalent of "James" is "Seumas," pronounced more-or-less like "SHAY-oo-mass." When addressing Seumas, lenition would apply such that "Seumas" becomes "a Sheumais" which, as I understand it, would be pronounced roughly "ah HEY-oo-maish" or, if an Anglophone heard it, they might hear "Hamish."

Which causes me to wonder about naming, if names like Shamus and Hamish really come from the same root. Further, given that Hamish appears already lenited, would further lenition be applied, or would a Gaelic speaker simply say "Hamish" the way they might say "Ahmed" or "Jorge," names from another language that may defy attempts to translate them into Gaelic?

The comment that started this whole chain of association was addressing Hamish as "Monsieur Jambon" or "Mister Ham." I appreciate the implicit pun on Hamish, who's often addressed as "Ham."

Am I just thinking too much? Should I be spending more time in the Laphroaig?

:ootd:

Not quite sure that I follow your penultimate paragraph .

In Gaelic there is no such name as Hamish, Vari, Gonnal etc. There are, as you imply, all Anglicised attempts/errors to render the vocative of the root names.

In a familiar setting i.e. family conversation the full vocative is usually elided further so ones hears Hamish, Vari etc.

[Old Hippie]

Not quite sure that I follow your penultimate paragraph .

No problem. What I was aiming toward was the thought (as you say below) that there is no "Hamish" in Gaelic, that it is merely how Seumas' name is pronounced when addressing him directly. Sometimes (often!) my brain goes off at a tangent when a casual comment touches on something I've been mulling over.

In Gaelic there is no such name as Hamish, Vari, Gonnal etc. There are, as you imply, all Anglicised attempts/errors to render the vocative of the root names.

In a familiar setting i.e. family conversation the full vocative is usually elided further so ones hears Hamish, Vari etc.

I have a passingly casual interest in several languages -- Gaelic, Maori and Chinook -- mainly because it's interesting to me to see how they deal with relations between people and with complex actions performed between people and things. As a speaker of any of them beyond what is essentially "howdy," I'm bloody useless.

:ootd:

[beloitpiper]

Certain names can't be aspirated (such as Hamish), so you don't really worry about it too much when speaking as Gaeilge.

[figheadair]

Certain names can't be aspirated (such as Hamish), so you don't really worry about it too much when speaking as Gaeilge.

Hamish is not a name but is already the aspirated form of Seumas. Names beginnng with a vowel; Iain, Eoin etc, don't aspirate. Some others do but there's no real change in pronunciation; Ruaraidh to Rhuaraidh etc,.

[castledangerous]

I love how my name, Micheal sounds aspirated -- "wickle"

[MacBean]

James is a language study by itself. Isn't the name a variant of Jacob? Look at the Spanish-Portuguese Tiago, Diego, or Jaco, Gaelic Seumus or Shay, not to mention English Jim, French Jacques.

[Dale Seago]

James is a language study by itself. Isn't the name a variant of Jacob?

"Ye Jacobites by name,
Lend an ear, lend an ear. . ."

[Mike_Oettle]

Castledangerous wrote: “I love how my name, Michael sounds aspirated – ‘wickle’.”
As a Michael myself, I thank you for that interesting information.
I understand that in Irish Gaelic it is pronounced as Mihawl.

And MacBean wrote: “James is a language study by itself. Isn't the name a variant of Jacob?”
That it is. The Hebrew original was Ya’acov. I’m not quite sure how it appears in Greek, but in Latin it is Jacobus. From that came the Italian Giacopo, and the French Jacques. Somehow in Iberian Romance it came out as Iago, and since it frequently occurred as the name of one or the other saint of that name, it became Santiago, shortened to Tiago.
But in some Italian dialects (or perhaps just one) Giacopo changed to Giacomo, and it seems that that name was taken to Scotland, becoming James in English (Scots, if you prefer), and Seumas in Gaelic.
It certainly was a well established name in Scotland before it was ever encountered in England – until that time, all the English boys named for St James were called Jacob.

Alexander is another name with an interesting route of derivation. St Margaret of Scotland, consort of King Malcolm III Canmore, was an admirer of Classical and biblical heroes, and named her eldest son Alexander (after the Macedonian) and the second David (after the King of Israel).
Alastair is one of the many English renderings of the Gaelic form of Alexander.
Both Alexander and David succeeded to the Scottish throne.

In fact it was through David that my ancestors came to be Scots. Prince David was Earl of Huntingdon in England, and when he succeeded his brother a number of those who had served him in Huntingdon accompanied or followed him to Scotland.
Among them was the progenitor of the Scottish Lindsay family. Others who followed served at the House of Fotheringay, and took the name of Fotheringham (now recognised as belonging to the Lowland “clan” of Lindsay).
My mother’s maternal grandfather was a Fotheringham.
Regards,
Mike

[triforme]

Just to complete a loop from above -- in Greek the name is Iakobos, and is always translated as "James" in English versions of the New Testament. Oddly, Ia'aqov is always translated "Jacob" in English versions of the Hebrew Scriptures.