Pronunciation of Chattan?

[wildrover]

Hmmm...makes me think of the difference in pronunciation between Norwegian and Danish. The guttural G...I am imagining something close to a glottal stop...? Do you have an example?

Where is there a "kh" in Mexico? Maybe I'm missing it...there is a difference between a Mexican accent and a Spanish accent, and I learned "Spain" Spanish rather than "Mexico" Spanish when I was younger, so my pronunciation is a little different than a lot of guys in the area who speak Spanish as a first language. Come to think of it, I'm not sure OTOH if Mexicans add a "kh" as in "Mehikho" or not...the sound I make at the "c" isn't anything like "loch" or the description of the "kh" sound...it's like the "kh", but much softer.

?

-Sean

The various assertions on how to pronounce Chattan intrigued me because, since I speak Afrikaans and German (and a bit of Dutch) the guttural sound found in loch is very familiar to me.
There is a general English-speaking tendency to lose that sound wherever possible (it was part of Anglo-Saxon).
It is a dead give-away when an English-speaker tries to speak Afrikaans and gets the g-sound wrong (both g and ch have guttural pronunciations in Dutch and Afrikaans).
And in the wider world we come across people who rave over the “locks” of Scotland and, especially in the US, those who anglicise Hispanic names like Juan (Wan), Julio (Hoolio) and Mexico (Meksiko) where there properly are kh-sounds.
The public school-educated sons of Scottish lords and lairds also fall into this trap, so I am not surprised to learn that at least one claimant to the chiefship of Clan Chattan talks of Clan Hatton.
But I am happy to have my suspicions confirmed and to continue speaking of Clan Khattan.
Regards,
Mike

[ThistleDown]

The various assertions on how to pronounce Chattan intrigued me because, since I speak Afrikaans and German (and a bit of Dutch) the guttural sound found in loch is very familiar to me.
There is a general English-speaking tendency to lose that sound wherever possible (it was part of Anglo-Saxon).
It is a dead give-away when an English-speaker tries to speak Afrikaans and gets the g-sound wrong (both g and ch have guttural pronunciations in Dutch and Afrikaans).
And in the wider world we come across people who rave over the “locks” of Scotland and, especially in the US, those who anglicise Hispanic names like Juan (Wan), Julio (Hoolio) and Mexico (Meksiko) where there properly are kh-sounds.
The public school-educated sons of Scottish lords and lairds also fall into this trap, so I am not surprised to learn that at least one claimant to the chiefship of Clan Chattan talks of Clan Hatton.
But I am happy to have my suspicions confirmed and to continue speaking of Clan Khattan.
Regards,
Mike

Those are the changes to pronunciation that often come about when a dominant culture sets the tone. It's why we must always look to the native speaker and not to our own prejudices. I should say two things, however: first, not all public school educated folk fall into the trap you described and, two, there are no "claimants" to the chiefship of Clan Chattan. The Clan Chattan chief is Mackintosh of Torcastle, but Clan Chattan is a "super clan" and has others who are chiefs in right of their hereditary positions in their own clans. Among these are Mackintosh of Mackintosh, chief of the Mackintoshes, Macpherson of Cluny, chief of the Macphersons, Farquharson of Invercauld, chief of the Farquharsons, etc.

Thank you for the Khattan, Mike

Rex

[Morris at Heathfield]

The guttural G...I am imagining something close to a glottal stop...? Do you have an example?

A fricative g, I believe, like the g in Spanish where it doesn't occur at the beginning of the word (or after n, or before i or e...). Examples: lago (lagho), galgo (galgho)

Except that, from what I've read, Afrikaans has no fricative g, it having merged with the fricative c/k, so it would be the same "kh" sound that has been discussed previously in this thread.

Where is there a "kh" in Mexico?

In the x: Mekhiko

[Cygnus]

In the x: Mekhiko

Only for those that don't speak like the natives. It has the Mexica (Aztec) pronunciation of meh-HEE-coh.

But that is a just a wee bit off topic.

EDIT: My point was to say that I've never heard natives pronounce the "x" in "Mexico" as anything but an "h" sound, and I know plenty of them. That's not to say, though, that the "x" wasn't a "kh" sound in the Nahuatl languages prior to the Spanish influence.

[ThistleDown]

Only for those that don't speak like the natives. It has the Mexica (Aztec) pronunciation of meh-HEE-coh.

But that is a just a wee bit off topic.

Yes, and no, Brian. I think we are still addressing the OP's question when we bring in similar variations in other languages in support of points in our own discussion.

Rex

[Cygnus]

Quite right, Rex.

When I said it was a bit off topic, I was referring to my comment on the pronunciation of Mexico by natives of that country. I have also taken a moment to edit my comment a bit and I hope you'll all forgive my lack of clarity - the oldest person I had spoken to all day was three years old, and that will take its toll on your ability to communicate!

[ThistleDown]

Quite right, Rex.

When I said it was a bit off topic, I was referring to my comment on the pronunciation of Mexico by natives of that country. I have also taken a moment to edit my comment a bit and I hope you'll all forgive my lack of clarity - the oldest person I had spoken to all day was three years old, and that will take its toll on your ability to communicate!

"You'll all" ? I don't mean to correct your native-speak, Brian, especially after a day in which your head has been bowed and your back humped, but shouldn't that be "you all" (Now THAT's off-topic.)

Rex

[Cygnus]

"You'll all" ? I don't mean to correct your native-speak, Brian, especially after a day in which your head has been bowed and your back humped, but shouldn't that be "you all" (Now THAT's off-topic.)

Rex

Living "out West" as I do, it's a common enough phrase (and I meant it as "you will").

Looking it up, though, it's not something unique to the Western US - Webster has its first recorded use as 1584. I only wish they had printed where it was first used!

If you haven't noticed, it's quite easy to get me "off topic" - which is why I often have to remind myself to get back on track!

[creagdhubh]

Wow, interesting conversation gents!

[MacBean]

I have wondered what are the point of Group Memberships in this community, but there do seem to be a good number of names here that might associate themselves with Clan Chattan.

I was wondering whether we might create such a group here, with a single goal: to get our respective Clans to band together more, pitch their tables and tents next one another at Games, and march together in parades such as the NYC Tartan Day Parade.

Let me know, here or in Personal Message, what you think of this?