M.H.Geoffrey & Co. Pipes - cheap tat or frightening value?

[artificer]

I was kicking around on eBay and saw THESE

I know that traditionally, you get what you pay for, ESPECIALLY in musical instruments. I was wondering though, if bag pipes mightn't be similar to the trend experienced with guitars over the last decade or so.

It used to be that any guitar made in Asia was pure trash. Now, some of the products coming from there exceed American made guitars.

When I bought my last guitar I was searching for a hollow body to play rockabilly and maybe a little blues. I tried a ton of guitars from chEEEEEp Chinese through $$$$$$$$$ American made. In the end, I bought an Ibanez ArtCore, which, while not inexpensive ( ~$450), was more than $2000 cheaper than the only guitar I liked better (a Gretsch 6120 Chet Atkins, if anyone cares).

Has anyone experienced this in bag pipes? Or is cheap still automatically bad in this field?

[Cygnus]

Rosewood is, in general, a good indication that the pipes are both not made in Scotland, Canada, or even the USA and not of very high quality. I own a set of rosewood pipes that were a (misguided and unresearched) gift from my parents. They're completely unplayable, the bag smells very strongly of naphthalene, and they're very prone to cracking.

You generally don't get better than what you pay for, though in this case I'd be very worried you're actually getting far less than what you paid for.

[piperdbh]

Geoffrey is a reputable company, but I think Cygnus is right about those 'pipes. Plus, you don't have the chance to play them before you buy them to see if you like them, assuming they're playable. If I were in the market, I'd steer clear of 'pipes that I couldn't put through their paces before committing to the purchase.

[cessna152towser]

I bought a set of pipes from this eBay seller.
I used to be able to play a few simple tunes on a quality set of pipes which I sold a few years back to one of the local pipe bands.
I assembled these Rosewood pipes as per the instructions but so far have only been able to get the base drone sounding. I am assured by one of the local band leaders that these pipes should be playable to an acceptable standard and when we have the time he will help me get started with them.

[Porloff94]

Any set of Rosewood pipes that I have seen have been nightmares. The bores are typically ragged or, in one case, out of round. They don't reed well. The bags are typically very poor at best. I'd say you still get what you pay for with regards to pipes.

[castledangerous]

Frightening is the operative word, but not paired with value

[artificer]

Frightening is the operative word, but not paired with value

Perhaps I was too specific in choosing the Geoffery pipes as an example.

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not there is an affordable, entry level set of pipes (most likely import) or is one forced to buy-in at $600+US?

Again, in the last 20 years, guitars have gotten better and cheaper. Sure, there's some real trash being made, but the guitar I bought for less than $500 would have cost +$1500 twenty years ago, and is more accurately made due to things like CNC cutters.

I realize that the market for guitars is somewhat larger than the bagpipe market but has there been a trending toward good quality (not pro-level) affordable pipes due to off-shore labour? Or has that section of the industry focused entirely on cheap, unplayable garbage?

This is mostly just idle curiosity, as I barely have time to pick up my guitars anymore. But, if a wild hair got me, I'd jump on a set of pipes. It would be nice to have a course plotted, should that urge hit.

Oh, cessna152towser, if any more info on tweaking your pipes into playablilty comes about, I'd love to know.

[castledangerous]

You start out on practice chanter anyway, so you'd have time to "plot a course"

[English Bloke]

I'm told by folks more knowlegable than I, that the problem with these cheaper rosewood pipes is, it is expensive to get them into a playable state. They usually need a replacement chanter, pipe bag, reeds etc and all this add-on negates any initial saving, not to mention all the trouble you have to go to to finish up with what is still basically, an inferior set of pipes.

In my foray into piping I was advised to steer clear of these (I'm a sucker for what appears to be a bargin) and so I opted for an acetyl set of P1's from McCallum to kick off with. More expensive yes but bullet-proof robustness.

I'd love a set of Douglas Macpherson's Bagpipes and I'm working towards those as a best set. The artistry is gob-smacking and the prices are not out of this world. And to own a set of unique, custom-made pipes must be as special as a hand-made-to-measure kilt.

EDIT: Oh yeah. forgot to mention that I bought an Argyll Jacket from this company a couple of years ago. Absolute garbage. Poor quality fabric, dreadful tailoring, nasty cheap buttons. This jacket required a re-work to make it wearable and it now hangs un-loved in my wardrobe. I can't even bring myself to foist it onto someone else via ebay. If their pipes are like their jackets? Nuff said!

[OC Richard]

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not there is an affordable, entry level set of pipes (most likely import) or is one forced to buy-in at $600+US?

I've been playing the pipes for 35 years, and have had a lot of newbies come by the house with pipes they've picked up here and there, and tried to get all sorts of pipes going. I also check Ebay daily for vintage pipes.

Bottom line, avoid all Pakistani pipes like the plague. The only Pakistani pipes I've seen that worked at all were 1) the ones imported by the Florida company Mid East Manufacturing and 2) Hakam Din bagpipes (sold directly and by Scott Morton, thus sometimes sold as "Morton" bagpipes).

The drones on the above Pakistani bagpipes sort of play, but their tone and performance is not on the same page as ANY bagpipe made by ANY legitimate British or North American maker. I have never tried a pipe chanter by any Pakistani maker that worked in the least.

Many people have mentioned the wood, have mentioned Rosewood. Many Pakistani pipes are made out of horrid Sheesham wood which they often incorrectly label as "rosewood" or "cocus". It isn't either.

Many legitimate pipes have been made out of several varieties of actual Rosewood, which are great woods. Real cocus wood was the wood of choice of 19th century Scottish pipemakers but is rare and expensive now.

Several modern legitimate British and North American pipemakers are using Mopane and Cocobolo wood with great results.

Also, one sometimes encounters Pakistani pipes made of African Blackwood or Ebony. They don't play any better than any other Pakistani pipes, because it's not about the wood, it's about the internal dimensions of the bores, which the Pakistani makers never get right.

So... if you want to play pipes, you NEED to get pipes made by a legitimate North American or British maker. I won't wear a kilt or a sporran made in Pakistan because they don't look or perform like the real articles do, and the same is true of bagpipes. You're a great craftsman yourself! You have the "eye". You would be happiest with a set of bagpipes made by a like-minded craftsman, I think, someone like Rod MacLellan or Rick Pettigrew or Dave Atherton or Tim Gellaitry or Doug MacPherson.

Dunbar Bagpipes in Canada (Rick Pettigrew) and McCallum Bagpipes in Scotland both make pipes of "polypenco" (delrin). These look ugly but are affordable and play great.

But I would bite the bullet and buy a "real" set of pipes, a set made by a true craftsman in a fine wood like African Blackwood, Mopane, or Cocobolo.

The other option is buying an old set of fine British or North American pipes on Ebay. I see fine instruments going cheaply on Ebay nearly every day. You can get a very nice-sounding set of Scottish-made pipes, an old set made in the 1950's through 1980's, for around the $600 you mention. There are some up on Ebay right now- I just checked.

But have an experienced bagpipe person, someone good at identifying old pipes, shop with you as you browse Ebay! You'll learn a lot, and avoid the many pitfalls that await the ignorant.

For example there's a set now, which people are foolishly bidding on, which is being sold as an old Grainger set. Well, it's a cheap Pakistani set, made of Sheesham wood painted black, that happens to have a Grainger chanter stuck in it. I used to have a catalogue from a Pakistani pipemaker back in the 1980's, and these pipes, sheesham wood with aluminum mounts, sold NEW for $20 at that time. People have bid this set up well over $200! And it's not as if an old Grainger chanter is worth that much either.

So the options are:

For good pipes in the $600 range, you'll have to go with old pipes, nickle and/or imitation ivory, on Ebay or whatever.

For good-sounding new pipes in the $800 range you'll have to get Polypenco pipes from Dunbar or McCallum.

For new good wood pipes you'll have to pay $1000.

Check out Piper's Hut. They have the best prices on things. See what legitimate pipes by Dunbar, McLellan, Gibson, McCallum, Hardie/Henderons/St Kilda, etc etc are going for.