To Black Watch or not to Black Watch?

[macwilkin]

Dale Seago wrote: “So if someone jumped on you about wearing a particular tartan because it ‘belongs to’ Clan X you could just reply, ‘Neener neener, doesn’t either, it’s 1690 and Clan X doesn't have a tartan yet.’ ”

Somehow this doesn’t ring true for me. And I am not entirely happy with Todd’s (Cajunscot’s) approach either – “. . . perhaps it's better to wear a non-named tartan”.
To my mind, the problem with a non-named tartan is that once is woven, it has an existence, and logically should have a name. Simply insisting that it is nameless seems rather silly to me.
Certainly one should strive to wear garments that fit the period – the breacan feile rather than the filibeg – and to use colours that were actually produced in those times.
But one is still stuck with the question: What tartans were worn in those days? And the answer is: We don’t know.
So anything one comes up with is an invention.
And, as Zardoz remarks: “As long as you don't mistake the ‘renaissance faire’ for a ‘period-correct renaissance era re-enactment’ you may ‘get away’ with a tailored kilt and lots of other ‘anachronistic’ things as part of your costume.

Perhaps in closing I should quote Yul Brynner as the King of Siam: “Is a puzzlement!”
Regarfds,
Mike

Mike,

Remember though, that the idea of naming tartans for a specific clan, district, etc. really didn't begin until the turn of the 19th century, when William Wilson of Bannockburn began to name tartans, instead of just cataloging by number. I think you're applying a modern concept that every tartan has to have a name just because it now exists -- Who knew Descartes thought about tartans? -- when in fact, original tartan patterns, as worn by the Highlanders, most likely would not have been named.

Another article by Matt explains this much better than I can:

http://albanach.org/sources.htm

I know some may feel it pedantic to quibble over whether the Government Sett is appropriate for a Ren Faire event -- chalk it up to my history instructor/genealogical librarian background. I dealt with family legends on a daily basis whilst working as the latter, but I could not, in good conscience, perpetuate those myths just because someone wanted to believe them. It's a fine line to walk.

T.

[budd4766]

Hmmmm, to jump off topic here, if a group of crows is a murder, and group of sheep is a flock, what is a group of tartans?

Geoff Withnell

Uhh...a "tattle" of tartans? Just took a stab at it, but might be fun to come up with something there...

[Zardoz]

Unfortunately, I bit a "fare" number (pun intended) of fare-goers/general public think everything they see is 100% accurate --- yet another mess for history teachers to clean up!

T.

I certainly hear what you are saying here Todd, but I'd hope that the average faire attendee would have already been prepared by their history teachers, or heavens forbid, their parents, to have the common sense to be able to tell fantasy from historical reality. I go to ren-faire to dress up and play, I can't be responsible if somebody goes to the Texas Ren-fest and looks at Cassidy and I here;

and comes away thinking "Oh that must be how folks dressed for Christmas in Tudor England" I would hope that maybe faires would stimulate some interest in history, but it's likely too late for some of them!

[macwilkin]

I certainly hear what you are saying here Todd, but I'd hope that the average faire attendee would have already been prepared by their history teachers, or heavens forbid, their parents, to have the common sense to be able to tell fantasy from historical reality. I go to ren-faire to dress up and play, I can't be reponsible if somebody goes to the Texas Ren-fest and looks at Cassidy and I here;

and comes away thinking "Oh that must be how folks dressed for Christmas in Tudor England" I would hope that maybe faires would stimulate some interest in history, but it's likely too late for some of them!

Mark,

I agree, and yet I don't, due to the reality of American education -- the fact is that history has longed been the "red-headed stepchild" in elementary & secondary education, and couple that with some pi**-poor teachers who are placed in history classes to give them something to teach (their primary focus is elsewhere), the fact remains that many people are not able to distinguish fact from fantasy. Hollywood has only made the situation worse.

T.

[Zardoz]

Mark,

I agree, and yet I don't, due to the reality of American education -- the fact is that history has longed been the "red-headed stepchild" in elementary & secondary education, and couple that with some pi**-poor teachers who are placed in history classes to give them something to teach (their primary focus is elsewhere), the fact remains that many people are not able to distinguish fact from fantasy. Hollywood has only made the situation worse.

T.

Todd, I understand, I've worked with the public for years, and I know there are a lot of folks out there who are a bit short of common sense and are dumb as a box of rocks. I blame seatbelt laws.
I always liked learning about history in school, and on my own, and I had teachers and parents who were smart and cared. I think I'd received a good foundation by the time I took history courses in college. But I have to remind myself that I finished high school in 1982, and I know things are sadly quite different now.

[macwilkin]

Todd, I understand, I've worked with the public for years, and I know there are a lot of folks out there who are a bit short of common sense and are dumb as a box of rocks. I blame seatbelt laws.
I always liked learning about history in school, and on my own, and I had teachers and parents who were smart and cared. I think I'd received a good foundation by the time I took history courses in college. But I have to remind myself that I finished high school in 1982, and I know things are sadly quite different now.

Indeed, Mark. I am amazed how much things have changed since I was in elementary school back in the 1980s -- they seem like the 1950s compared to these days.

T.

[Orthzar]

I am very courious about this statment. Unless your waving your sgian about nobody will know if its sharp or not, Mine is acctualy a bottle opener and until i pull it out for use nobody even knows.

Some sgian's bought from un reputable sellers do look costumey but to say all unsharpend ones do is too much of a generalisation.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with faux sgian dubhs, nor do I care if other people wear them; such is their prerogative. What I meant was that I would not carry a faux sgian dubh, because I like to own and possess things that are useful; fashion is a secondary consideration once I have everything I need.

That being said, I actually would wear a sgian dubh that has a bottle-opener in place of any blade, because it is both useful and a good conversation piece. Faux sgian dubhs, on the other hand, are neither useful nor very much of a conversation piece beyond, "why not a real one?"

At any rate, who cares? If it is a special occassion, ornaments are expected, so no complaints from me.

[Jordan]

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with faux sgian dubhs, nor do I care if other people wear them; such is their prerogative. What I meant was that I would not carry a faux sgian dubh, because I like to own and possess things that are useful; fashion is a secondary consideration once I have everything I need.

That being said, I actually would wear a sgian dubh that has a bottle-opener in place of any blade, because it is both useful and a good conversation piece. Faux sgian dubhs, on the other hand, are neither useful nor very much of a conversation piece beyond, "why not a real one?"

At any rate, who cares? If it is a special occassion, ornaments are expected, so no complaints from me.

Ok I can kinda see what you mean the obviously cheap plastic ones are a bit rubbish. I prefer something which is acctualy useful too thats why Mine is a bottle opener beacuse wandering around with a sharp blade is not going to be apreciated.

I do think we're seeing the same things from different angles, and I agree about the little extra bling for special occasions being a good thing.

Jordan

[Detroitpete]

Black Watch at a Ren Fair? Heck, I've seen Isle of Skye, Albbanach, Leatherneck and a slew of other late 20th/early21st century tartans at Ren Fairs. What with fairies, harem girls and what not, an out of period tartan is unlikely to be noticed.

Hmmmm, to jump off topic here, if a group of crows is a murder, and group of sheep is a flock, what is a group of tartans?

Geoff Withnell

^^^^^^^^what he said!^^^^^^^^

[Detroitpete]

I certainly hear what you are saying here Todd, but I'd hope that the average faire attendee would have already been prepared by their history teachers, or heavens forbid, their parents, to have the common sense to be able to tell fantasy from historical reality. I go to ren-faire to dress up and play, I can't be responsible if somebody goes to the Texas Ren-fest and looks at Cassidy and I here;

and comes away thinking "Oh that must be how folks dressed for Christmas in Tudor England" I would hope that maybe faires would stimulate some interest in history, but it's likely too late for some of them!

Darn you Zardoz! I was reading along just fine when all of a sudden THIS pops up on the next post--Now I've forgotten WHAT I was thinking, what I was going to say, what day it is and why am I now focused on the fashion possiblilities of chain maile? I think you may have provided a picture of yourself here somewhere--but sorry lad--I can't seem to find it ;)

Be careful old man--I'm YOUR age Hmmm... Texas ren faire....wonder if they have highland games there--possible reason to check things out?

Ok--back from the hijack--Nope--BW not correct period--but heck, look at what people where at such events. Besides, I'm one of those guys who would never wear the BW in any case--for any reason.