Kilts - Do You Know What You Are Getting?

[Jaggy thistle]

I have a cheap casual kilt that I wear when working on the car gardening ect it would be made in some land across the sea it does not hold its pleats as well as a hand stitched kilt but the quality of the stitching is excellent it gets very rough use and after a year there is not a stitch out of place

[CMcG]

<snip>

There was an article recently in the Scottish Sunday Herald about the decline in the number of traditional kiltmakers left in Scotland. The article said that there are only 10 left in the whole of Scotland, my wife would like to know who the other 9 are! They claim that this problem was caused by the number of exports and machine made kilts.

We had an interesting discussion about that article here:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-crisis-61752/

One of our members had this reply:

I just spoke on the phone with one of the individuals interviewed for the article and he says that the number of kilt makers mentioned is an estimate from someone of the number of kilt makers who were trained in the traditional methods via an apprenticeship. It was not meant to be suggested that there were only 10 kilt makers in Scotland in total. However, the wording in the article, either through the fault of the writer or the editor, did not reflect that. The wording used was something like "only 10 authentic kilt makers left" which would of course get some hackles up.

[saxandpipes]

... There is a market for machine kilts but at least be honest about it, don’t call it “hand finished” or “bespoke” and charge top dollar for it.

Exactly!

[MacLowlife]

First, WELCOME. I appreciate your contribution- and your wife's.

Second, we live in complicated times. Hand craftsmanship is a wonderful thing, but sometimes machine work is superior. I am lucky enough to own a "transitional" automobile from one of the famous makers. In the 1960s, they began to make and sell cars with bodies that were not coachbuilt. I am sure there were reasons and some of them were probably associated with quality, while it is pretty clear cost was in there, too. But if you offered me a handbuilt car of 1920s technology or a robot-made one of 2010 technology, I can think of several juxtapositions that would make me choose the new one, regardless of wear or actual age.

Aside from the virtues of cheap and cheerful and the necessity of utility-grade garments, aside from the populist vs elitist questions, aside even from the ethical questions of labeling and certification, there are dozens of factors that influence a kilt's quality and its fitness for a given person and his situation. I agree that knowledge and acquaintance are great help in this process. So is a habit of frequenting this site.

But if I might raise one more point while I am on my soapbox, it is this: "Good value" does not come out of thin air. Good value comes about when a person buys something for less than he thinks it is worth. In today's market, he does so because the seller has chosen to sell it for less, but that seller has to get the lower price from somewhere- economies of scale? Lower wages? lower quality? Lower advertising cost?

Few of us would admit to wanting to "stick it" to a person we had just sat down to lunch with, but we all enjoy a bargain, right? While we might like to nurture businesses and support craftsmen, we generally do not want to "leave money on the table". So, while I have no answer here, other than to suggest being generous and circumspect, I do think it is important to note that commerce is often tricky. And knowledge is definitely power.

Aren't we lucky that we can learn from each other?

[Spectre]

Its really all about how much $$ one is willing to spend. I, for one, simply cannot justify purchasing a handmade custom job for what I do in a kilt when a machine sewn one will do nicely. I guess when and if I decide to go out and get myself a true black tie quality kilt, then I MAY go ahead and drop the $600 plus in order to get one.
Some folks wear Doc Martin's, and some are happy with WalMart specials.

[Jordan]

Its really all about how much $$ one is willing to spend. I, for one, simply cannot justify purchasing a handmade custom job for what I do in a kilt when a machine sewn one will do nicely. I guess when and if I decide to go out and get myself a true black tie quality kilt, then I MAY go ahead and drop the $600 plus in order to get one.
Some folks wear Doc Martin's, and some are happy with WalMart specials.

What you need to remember is that a high quality kilt will with stand being beat up but a not so good one wont.

for example I have one TFCK kilt and one SWK, the SWk being machine made in where ever is starting to look like its past it where as the TFCK one still looks new and they have both been worn for the same things, Shops nights out etc nothing rough like hiking etc most I have subjected my kilts to is a little sitting down while travelling.

So while a handmade kilt costs more you might only need one well made kilt to outlast two or three badly made ones and your saving money.

Just my tuppence Jordan

[ForresterModern]

I am a bit torn about where I fall in this debate/discussion. I think, with 2 casual machine sewn kilts, 6 full 8yard 13 or 16 oz machine sewn kilts, and 7 handsewn similar 8yd 13/16 oz kilts from various makers and vendors, I have yet to have what I considered a sub par quality experience----variable customer service, maybe, but all quality kilts that fit well (or did when I ordered them). Of late I have taken to finding deals on tartan and having a kiltmaker I have become comfortable with do handsewns, which brings great quality for what I consider to be great value. But then, for the second time in a little over a year I have found what I consider to be an incredible deal on a machine sewn 8yd kilt in what is a rare special weave tartan 160z (possibly 18 if the vendor can swing it with the custom weaver) for less than what most could get the custom weave tartan alone for, heck even less than the retail price of enough off the rack Lochcarron strome tartan to make a similar kilt. And it is from what for all intents and purposes is a reputable company I have worked with in the past and been satisfied (different web site but the same customer service numbers and contact info and service manager). To date, although I admit the custom handsewns fit a little better than most of my machine sewns, it is not enough for me to avoid machine sewns altogether, especially when I can swing a great deal. But I still prefer to find my own tartan deals and then have "my" kiltmaker work their magic on it.

I have worn my kilts to work, to games, around town, on the golf course, in the sweltering heat and humidity, in weather cold enough to see your breath, and in the heavy scottish rain, and have yet to have either machine or handsewn fail or deform in any way---they are pretty much all, at least functionally, tanks. The casuals are in an entirely different class IMHO, and I doubt that I will ever order another----guess I am becoming a kilt snob in that way. I think if I were a traditional scot who only wanted one kilt in clan tartan I would have trouble deciding whether to settle for a good machine sewn kilt or go big for the full handsewn, I guess that is the thrifty scot influence in me still------balancing quality and price. Turnaround time for me is not really an issue, jones or no.

Just one man's tuppence.

jeff

[OC Richard]

It has been annoying me now for ages.

Me too!!

My wife is a kilt maker and takes great pride in producing a hand stitched quality kilt for a customer made from materials produced in the UK.

Good for her! May she prosper!

There are also those companies on the web, and High Streets, who sell “tat” imported from the Far East, India and Pakistan...

This practice is affecting the traditional kiltmakers who are trying to make a decent living from their skills.

This is an issue for me and has been for years. Genuine traditional Scottish kiltmakers, sporranmakers, jacket makers, and pipemakers are under heavy attack by a flood of imported "tat", largely sold to unsuspecting tourists.

It's why I believe that Scotland should pass a law banning the importation FOR RESALE of a number of things which could be called "National Cultural Items" or some such, to include kilts, sporrans, tartan, jackets cut for kilts, and Highland bagpipes.

One objection often touted is the difficulty of defining these things. California went through a similar process when it banned "assault weapons". It seems that everone knows an assault weapon when they see it, but it's a bit difficult to write a clear definition. But it was done.

Another objection is Scottish people wanting to buy foreign items for personal use. Note the words FOR RESALE above. (I don't imagine that a large number of Scots are purchasing "tat" for their personal use anyhow. I'll bet that 99% of the "tat" is sold to foreign tourists who think that they're buying Scottish-made goods.)

As someone who has taught the pipes for years, I cringe whenever I get a call from somebody who has purchased "real Scottish bagpipes" on their recent holiday in Edinburgh and wants to start lessons. The "real Scottish bagpipes" always turn out to be Pakistani. These people have to be gently informed that what they purchased is 1) not Scottish-made and 2) not a musical instrument per se, and if they're serious about learning pipes they will have to aquire a genuine instrument.

By the way I recently bought a new kilt, handsewn by a Scottish kiltmaker, just as my other kilt is. I personally am not interested in wearing anything other than a tartan wool handsewn traditional kilt made by a traditional kiltmaker (be they Scottish or American or whatever). The pipes I play and the sporran I wear were made in Scotland around 100 years ago. I suppose I'm some sort of fantatic but there it is.