Interesting Irish kilt article

[Lallans]

Hmmmm , well if the early Scots weren't Irish, the Irish did a good job of fooling the Romans who were on the scene in their day and who named the Irish 'Scotti'- that was only later transferred to Scotland. And from the Norman invasion until about the mid-nineteenth century, Scottish Highlanders themselves were referred to as "the Irish" by their Lowland neighbours.

And then of course there are the very ancient Ulster Cycle of tales which have the likes of the Sons Of Uisnech taking Deirdre and invading and settling in present-day Scotland....

[Spc. Scott]

I thought that this one seemed familiar...

And as before it has turned into an interesting read. Thank you all.

[Nick the DSM]

Hmmmm , well if the early Scots weren't Irish, the Irish did a good job of fooling the Romans who were on the scene in their day and who named the Irish 'Scotti'- that was only later transferred to Scotland. And from the Norman invasion until about the mid-nineteenth century, Scottish Highlanders themselves were referred to as "the Irish" by their Lowland neighbours.

And then of course there are the very ancient Ulster Cycle of tales which have the likes of the Sons Of Uisnech taking Deirdre and invading and settling in present-day Scotland....

Gaelic was also called Irish including the gaelic spoken by Scottish Highlanders. I don't think there was much of a difference then between the languages and I will assume the lowlanders and maybe even the English didn't care to put a difference.

We all know that the kilt started out with the leine, and both Irish and Scottish wore that commonly. I think in Matt's article it might have stated that even the highlanders dyed their leine saffron as well. I guess the Scots just evolved it differently than their cousins across the sea.

[MacSpadger]

Hmmmm , well if the early Scots weren't Irish, the Irish did a good job of fooling the Romans who were on the scene in their day and who named the Irish 'Scotti'- that was only later transferred to Scotland.

Not to go off at a tangent, but the Romans actually named the Ireland Hibernia, (from the Latin Hibernus = wintery), and called the Irish Hibernians.

In a later period, the 4th century to be precise, after the Roman Empire had assimilated Britain, (Brittania), raiders began to come to Brittania to steal slaves and plunder. These are named as two distinct piratical types, the Scotti and the Attacotti.

I have yet to see an example of Roman reporting that places the Scotti or the Attacotti as coming from Ireland. Tacitus, Jerome, Ammianus, Pelagius, the chroniclers of the day, don't mention the origins of these raiders at all.

Jerome does mention seeing the Scotti in Gaul, (France), where he reports on their cannibalism. However, Symmachus does record what is probably he first ever transcript of international Irish trade, huge "Scottic dogs" imported into Britain. The best clue comes in the 5th century. "Scottic raids" continue, so the Roman navy is called in and finally defeats them, causing all Hibernia to weep (Claudian: Panegyric on the 4th consulship of the Emperor Honorius).

So that's the facts. Legend wise we have Queen Scotia/Scota daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh who was Queen of the Milesians. There's at least 4 differing versions of her founding the Scots, but in the Irish invasion cycles, as you will know, the Milesians came from the northern coast of Spain and invaded Ireland, defeating the Tuatha de Dannann in battle but Queen Scotia/Scota was killed during the fighting and is buried near Tralee.

What I find interesting is the result of DNA studies by the University of Dublin that shows that the dark haired inhabitants of Western Ireland shared strong DNA characteristics with the older pre Moorish invasion peoples of Spain. Folkore has had it for centuries that the large amount of black haired/darker skinned Irish on the West coast was due to shipwrecked survivors of the Spanish Armada settling in the West of Ireland and taking Irish wives. However, there is a much stronger case for a migration route from the eastern Mediterranean to Ireland through Spain. These darker peoples, descendents of Iberian farmers, were pushed to the Western fringes of both Ireland and Spain by successive waves of immigration and invasion. They went as far West as they could, to the fringes of their lands.

So as with some legend, there may be a kernel of truth there. I will, however, draw the line at the Sons Of Uisnech wading across the sea to Argyll with Deirdre on their shoulders.

So, the Scotti were pirate raiders, most likely from Ireland, but not really representative of how the Romans saw Ireland. It would be interesting to know what the actual Irish thought fo the matter, but contemporary Irish history simply doesn't mention Rome or the Romans at all.

[MacSpadger]

We all know that the kilt started out with the leine, and both Irish and Scottish wore that commonly. I think in Matt's article it might have stated that even the highlanders dyed their leine saffron as well. I guess the Scots just evolved it differently than their cousins across the sea.

I have never seen how the kilt evolved from the leine. A leine was basically a long linen shirt. Leine still means shirt today, in both Scotland and Ireland.
Yes, the Irish and Scots both dyed their linen shirts a saffron colour, but there is much well recorded evidence in Scotland that the leine was a long linen shirt worn underneath the belted plaid or even the kilt itself.
There are several accounts of Highlanders flinging aside their woolen plaids in order to charge the enemy in their leines/shirts without the heavy plaids getting in the way.
Surely it's well documented that the kilt (feileadh beag) is descended from the belted plaid, (feileadh mhor)?

[Nick the DSM]

I have never seen how the kilt evolved from the leine. A leine was basically a long linen shirt. Leine still means shirt today, in both Scotland and Ireland.
Yes, the Irish and Scots both dyed their linen shirts a saffron colour, but there is much well recorded evidence in Scotland that the leine was a long linen shirt worn underneath the belted plaid or even the kilt itself.
There are several accounts of Highlanders flinging aside their woolen plaids in order to charge the enemy in their leines/shirts without the heavy plaids getting in the way.
Surely it's well documented that the kilt (feileadh beag) is descended from the belted plaid, (feileadh mhor)?

Yes, ofcourse. But it started off as a leine with a mantle wrapped the body first before it became the belted plaid, right? That's what I meant beforehand, just a starting point.

[Lallans]

[QUOTE=MacSpadger;941996]So as with some legend, there may be a kernel of truth there. I will, however, draw the line at the Sons Of Uisnech wading across the sea to Argyll with Deirdre on their shoulders.
QUOTE]

Very interesting dissertation, glad you posted it. But I will draw the line against the wading thing you mention- I've never seen that in the legend. They took a boat, which is easy enough to do since the two coastlines are in sight of each other.

[Bugbear]

Yes, ofcourse. But it started off as a leine with a mantle wrapped the body first before it became the belted plaid, right? That's what I meant beforehand, just a starting point.

Are you going to start wearing a Leine and brat to out "authentic" every one else?

There's been some interesting information, like that Italian garment, discussed in this thread.

I would like to someday get a good look at how a lein might have been pleated according to the reenactors.

[O'Callaghan]

I have no idea where this idea comes from. A brat is just a cloak type blanket, and was known by many names and worn throughout Europe, it's not specifically Irish. In fact in The Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell we can read a description of a group of hired mercenaries from the Scottish Hebrides employed by O'Donnell in 1594, where use of a cloak marks them out as visually different from the Irish.....these were recognized among the Irish by the difference of their arms and clothing their habits and languages for their exterior dress was mottled cloaks to the calf of the leg with ties and fastenings. Their girdles were over the loins outside the cloaks

This sounds like a description of a large/great plaid type garment to me, and wearing one made the Scots look markedly different from the Irish to the author of the piece.

As for the influx of Irish Gaels into Scotland, leading to the founding of Dalradia, this seems to be taken as historical fact when in fact it comes from Geoffrey of Monmouth repeating legends which also include giants and King Arthur. A lot of archaeological and DNA research has been done by the Universities of Strathclyde and Dublin which shows evidence of trade and going back and forth over the Irish Sea, (as there was throughout all Europe at that time), but no influx or imposition of culture whatsoever. In fact, Peter Lawrie writes "There is almost no archaeological evidence to support the traditional view of migration from Ireland and some evidence to support the view that there was considerable influence in the opposite direction, from Scotland to Ireland. Some early genealogies were evidently re-written in the 10th century to bolster contemporary claimants to the Scottish throne. These practices continued in the 15th and 16th centuries when the mythically ancient origins of the Scots kingdom were extended back in time by Boece and Major to include the pharaohs of Egypt and Kings of Troy. Late medieval Highland clans similarly used myths of descent from ancient Irish kings to bolster their seniority".

Click here for full article.
As for the Picts, there are many examples of stone carvings in my native North East of Scotland. Several show men wearing "brat" type cloaks and/or long tunic type garments. Publishers such as Osprey have used these images to extrapolate on what a Pict may have looked like. He wasn't wearing trousers.



In Volume 1/09 of History of Scotland, a Mr Donald Buchanan Robertson QC, of Edinburgh, has made available part of a report by the English spy, John Aston, on the Scots army on the eve of the Battle of Newburn, 1640.

It’s interesting in that it not only has what you’d expect to hear, but also references to what may be a proto kilt, and an emphasis on archers. I repeat it, unedited;

"Most guessed them (the Scots army) to be about 10 or 12,000 at the most, accounting the highlanders, whose fantastique habits caused much gazing by such as have not scene them heretofore. They were all or most part of them well timbred men, tall and active, apparelled in blew woollen wascotts and blew bonnets. A padre of bases of pled, and stockings of the same, and a padre of pumpes on their feete: a mantle of pled cast over the left shoulder, and under the right arm, a pocquett before for their knapsack, and a pair of durgs on either side the pocquett.

They are left to their own election for their weapons; some carry onely a sword and targe, others musquetts, and the greater part bow and arrows, with a quiver to hould about 6 shafts, made of the maine of a goat or colt, with the hair hanging on, and fastened by some belt of such like, soe it appears almost a taile to them.

These were about 1000, and had bagg-pipes (for the most part) for their warlick instruments. The Laird Buchanan was their leader. Their ensigns had strange devices and strange words, in a language unknown to mee, whether their own or not I know not".


What’s interesting to me is the use of the words “bases” in conjunction with “bases of pled”.

Bases were a type of male pleated skirt that seems to have been use in Italy in the 1400’s but the use of them spread throughout Europe as far north as Holland and France, and there are illustrative examples of them from the 1500’s in Britain, (including Scotland) and Ireland. Unfortunately they are sometimes reported as being kilts. I suppose they are, in a way, inasmuch as a kilt is a pleated skirt. There is nothing particularly “Celtic” about them, being an Italian import that was found to be useful when wearing armour.

There are a great many examples from England and continental Europe.

The use of the term here seems to maybe imply that the highlanders were not wearing only the Great Plaid in 1640, as we might have been led to expect by some reports, but a separate pleated garment. The reference to “pled” I can only assume to mean tartan, therefore the stockings, pleated skirt and shoulder plaids were all tartan.

In short, with so many variants and European influences, I can't see how anyone can say that Scots kilts are derived from Irish clothing.

Plaid does not mean tartan, despite American usage. It means blanket. As for 'pled', I am really not sure. Wear your blanket as a cloak and you can call it a brat. Wear it under a belt (which would be what your quote meant by 'girdle') and it's a great kilt. Either way, it's still the same actual piece of untailored fabric. Wear it one way and you could be Irish, amongst other things, but wear it the other way and you will look like a highlander of a certain time period. So of course, the quote from The Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell identifies how scots in the highlands would have been recognisable, specifically because they wore their belts ('girdles') on top, no doubt amongst other details, but most likely also some similarities. They would certainly not have been marked out as scots merely because they wore cloaks, but because "Their girdles were over the loins outside the cloaks".

According to tradition, the gaels came to Ireland from Spain, and then one of the major tribes (traditionally there were five) of Irish Gaels, called the Dal Riada, spread into the highlands of Scotland. Irish monks recorded this, and whilst some of the details of their accounts are questionable, I have no reason to doubt the broad picture. Presumably at some point they adopted the practice of wearing their belts over their cloaks (almost reminiscent of Superman wearing his underwear on the outside, LOL!) and no-one seriously disputes that this landmark event took place in what we now call Scotland. There is little dispute that at this time we would be talking about people who spoke gaelic and not pictish, a language that is lost to us, AFAIK.

[llyd]

Interesting thread, wot?

European history gets a bit murky doesn't it?