To the Forum regarding the XMTSAS Saltire

**James C** · 24th January 11, 07:55 AM

A shame to see the ole saltire plane go. I remember hearing about it stopping in our store. Fairwell ye Saltire you have been to place many have never seen.

**Drac** · 24th January 11, 08:31 AM

While I am disappointed to not have a chance to be part of the flight I can understand that all things must end. She will at least be given a place of honor so while it is a retirement it is not truely an ending, just a change of guard.

On when of if it is to be replaced I would hope to see something made by a member or better yet several members instead of something from a shelf.

While a knife carries with it complications of legalities around the world there is something that we have done on another forum. We did several pass around knives. One that stood out was one gentleman was gifted some shrapnal from the battlefield of Bulge. Another gentleman forged it into a billet of patternwelded steel (damascus), than another made the blade, another the handle, ect.

How about something in that nature? A little bit of lether work from a sporran maker (or two), some carving from another, some metal work from a jewler? Not sure how that can be put together but it would have more meaning.

Jim

**Nighthawk** · 24th January 11, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

Respectfully, though, if you believe that Jamie intended this as a slap in the face, then you really do not know Jamie/Panache, who is one of the most respectful people I know. CDNsushi's post above is spot on when it comes to the Saltire. As a former Moderator when the Saltire was commissioned, it was never officially sanctioned by the old forum owner -- it was Jamie's idea and Jamie's efforts that got her flying in the first place. Therefore, I stand by his decision to retire her.

T.

It is indeed his decision to make. Do I support it, meaning do I think it's the right one? No. Do I think it was intended to be a slap in the face? Of course not! That doesn't mean that it's not a slap in the face just because that wasn't the intention. If my father were to take our family sword to the grave because he liked the way he looked wearing it, that would be a slap in the face- even though he wouldn't intend it to be. The Saltire is the same concept- it's like a family heirloom to this community! I've gotten to see it and I feel like it was a slap in the face!

I've been here since her inception. I do in fact remember the story, even if vaguely because I didn't keep close tabs on it. I also stand by Jaime's right to retire it simply because he did make it and technically is it's owner. Problem is that it has become so much more than just a little toy...

**macwilkin** · 24th January 11, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

It is indeed his decision to make. Do I support it, meaning do I think it's the right one? No. Do I think it was intended to be a slap in the face? Of course not! That doesn't mean that it's not a slap in the face just because that wasn't the intention. If my father were to take our family sword to the grave because he liked the way he looked wearing it, that would be a slap in the face- even though he wouldn't intend it to be. The Saltire is the same concept- it's like a family heirloom to this community! I've gotten to see it and I feel like it was a slap in the face!

Sorry, but I don't see that analogy at all. My grandfather took his masonic apron to the grave with him as part of masonic funeral rites, but I don't see that as a slap in the face. I have other items to remember him and his membership in the craft. The family tradition of males joining the lodge continued, regardless of whether his apron is above or below the ground.

I've been here since her inception. I do in fact remember the story, even if vaguely because I didn't keep close tabs on it. I also stand by Jaime's right to retire it simply because he did make it and technically is it's owner. Problem is that it has become so much more than just a little toy...

I view the Saltire much like I view the old Hamish Mk. I pose that he retired a number of years ago. Folks didn't gather torches and pitchforks when Hamish announced its retirement; they simply came up with new poses, with Hamish in the lead.

T.

**auld argonian** · 24th January 11, 09:36 AM

While I'm neither here nor there on the disposition of the wooden blimpie-thing, I noticed that there has been some discussion about a possible substitute totem item to replace it in the hearts and minds of Xmarksers.

I would propose a banner, not unlike a clan banner, that could be schlepped around to various places and events. I would suggest that this be something not unlike the quilts used by other organizations which would be added to at ever stop; some signatures, embroidery, a patch, a swatch of tartan...etc. If anyone is familiar with the "gypsy robe" tradition on Broadway, something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_Robe

Possibly a new blank banner that's designed to be added to or a piece of the Xmarks tartan. I know that there has been discussion of there not being any sort of "official" representation of Xmarks at any given events like Highland Games but I'm sure that something could be worked out...we're not so much an organization as we are a sort of support group, after all...

...whatever: it's obviously time to move on and not beat the disposition of the previous totem item into the ground...

Best

AA

**Zardoz** · 24th January 11, 10:21 AM

Guys, seriously!
I do not want to fan the flames on this, but I'll throw in one more thought.

This whole thing is rather interesting as an example of how seriously we take symbols. I'm reminded of a book I recently read, "The Invention of Tradition" which is mostly about how some ancient traditions are often something somebody just made up a generation ago, though it seems in the time of internet forums it only takes a couple years to do the same!

The airship Saltire was conceived in fun, based on a lighthearted bit of fiction, by a fellow who likes to have fun. It came from what was frankly IMO a less contentious, more lighthearted era for this forum. It's mission of friendship was heartfelt, and I did my part in it in that light, but I never thought of the little toy blimp as anything more than an excuse to go take some pictures to share with the forum.

Some of the posters have made the wee Saltire into some lofty sacred totem, like it was hewn from the earth when Hank put the first funny kilt picture on the internet in 2004. I bet it seems to our newer members like I was dragging the stone of Scone around with me! I assure you I was not, Hell, I'd put the little thing in my shirt pocket while I stalked around historical sites.

Hey, is that a sacred relic, or are you just happy to see me?

I valued the Saltire as 'a symbol' of friendship among X-Marks members at the time it was created, certainly not 'the symbol' of the forum for all time to come! We have other perhaps more lasting symbols, a lovely tartan, a good looking clan badge, the plant badge, and the "old" kilt pin not many of us have. I am proud to have an example of each of these, but honestly I don't value the forum's symbols as much as the idea of the 'community of kilt wearers' they represent .

I'm a little surprised at some of the vitriol and anger in some of the posts in this thread, I say 'a little' because lately threads about the simplest things seem to descend into fights so fast these days. At the risk of being referred to as a xenophobe or member of the 'insular old guard' club again, I agree with Jamie's thoughts that the forum that inspired the airship was not the same place it is now. This makes me a little sad, but change is the only constant, and change on the internet happens at the speed of light. A forum is a community of people, all individuals, their knowledge, talents, personalities, and attitudes shape the landscape. And the people change and come an go too. As has been observed, people have dealt with the changes in different ways, I choose to roll with it for now.

I also agree that sending something around for photos is a fun idea. But it does not have to be one thing, all the time. The 'thing' and it's origin could change from time to time. Please keep it simple, please keep it fun, and please try not to fight about it.

**Mr. bone** · 24th January 11, 10:37 AM

How about just a nice logbook? one big enough to insert some photos in, but still small enough not to cost a fortune to mail. I don't recall the flagship ever making it to our area, although Arlen did get it down south. Whoever fills the last page of the logbook is charged with returning it to the mods, where it could be transcribed to a sticky with photos, and sending out a new logbook.

**Jordan** · 24th January 11, 10:43 AM

CDN Sushi has already started a thread on this topic here

**azwildcat96** · 24th January 11, 10:45 AM

Not angry. Just trying to point out that this reminds me of a little kid that takes his soccer ball home because he didn't like losing a game. Basically ruining it for the rest of the kids until they find another ball. Seems a little selfish. Really isn't a big deal, and didn't mean to make it one. Let's figure out what the new "ball" should be, and move on. I know there are already other posts discussing this now. Enough said.

**robthehiker** · 24th January 11, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Guys, seriously!

I'm a little surprised at some of the vitriol and anger in some of the posts in this thread, I say 'a little' because lately threads about the simplest things seem to descend into fights so fast these days. At the risk of being referred to as a xenophobe or member of the 'insular old guard' club again, I agree with Jamie's thoughts that the forum that inspired the airship was not the same place it is now.

*** and I am definitely not one of the "old guard" (if ever there was one).