Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[Andy Proffitt]

Well, I've never "jammed" someone with my sgian dubh, but I have used mine to cut "zip-ties", string, loosen knots in rope, cut apples, cheese, etc.- basically anything one would use a knife for in everyday situations.





It's become an accepted part of Traditional Highland Civilian Dress and is an additional item of decoration.

Modern Basket-Hilted Broadswords, though, have a specific meaning- they are part of a uniform and identify those who have achieved a particular rank in a Scottish/Highland Regiment or hold a comparable rank in a pseudo-military context (i.e. Drum Major in a Pipe Band while wearing his band uniform).

I am aware and not questioning its use in Highland dress, and for that matter I've not jammed anyone with mine...save maybe a sandwich.

What I was questioning was the line of logic (as I read it) that stated the dirk and sword were designed for killing people/defense of ones person, but that the sgian was somehow other. I highly doubt that the sgian came about when someone looked at his hose and decided they needed an extra bit of decoration.

The sgian is a utilitarian design, and I use it as such. But if what is being stated is that one of those utilities was not defense, I'm not sure I can buy that.

Yes, by the 1800's Scotland was pacified, at least there was no organized armed movement, and in America at the same time, the Revolutionary War was over, but does the end of armed national conflict mean that violence ceased in both areas? Did criminals cease their activities in Scotland, did rape robbery and murder disappear? Would someone faced with such not use the sgian they had in their stocking top in the same way as a dirk or sword? That is one of the inherent utilities of any blade, defense.

Sorry to offend, but it piqued the odd logic/quandary/human nature portion of my brain. I probably thought too much about it.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What I was questioning was the line of logic (as I read it) that stated the dirk and sword were designed for killing people/defense of ones person, but that the sgian was somehow other. I highly doubt that the sgian came about when someone looked at his hose and decided they needed an extra bit of decoration.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

[Dale Seago]

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

Dang it, we really do need a Facebook-style "like" button, or the "thanks" button some other forums have, or something of that sort.

[Tobus]

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

That is an interesting bit of history, but I think your conclusion doesn't necessarily match your description.

You seem to have stated that the original use of the sgian dubh was utilitarian (as I bolded in your reply above). Just because others in later years started to wear it as a mere decoration doesn't mean that this was its origin. It seems pretty clear that it was first carried as a functional tool, and only evolved into a decoration later.

Hence, Andy Proffitt's statement was correct. It didn't come about from someone just waking up one day and deciding his sock needed a decoration.

Right?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That is an interesting bit of history, but I think your conclusion doesn't necessarily match your description.

You seem to have stated that the original use of the sgian dubh was utilitarian (as I bolded in your reply above). Just because others in later years started to wear it as a mere decoration doesn't mean that this was its origin. It seems pretty clear that it was first carried as a functional tool, and only evolved into a decoration later.

Hence, Andy Proffitt's statement was correct. It didn't come about from someone just waking up one day and deciding his sock needed a decoration.

Right?

Oh Absolutely. But not for the reasons some might suppose.

According to a manuscript in the Library of The Writers to the Signet, in Aberdeen, in 1802 The Macnab wished to disguise a scar on his right leg that was visible above the top of his hose. At the suggestion of his daughter he placed an ivory letter opener in his sock, which neatly covered the scar. Later, when discussing his portrait with Raeburn, it was suggested that the handle of the letter opener be painted red to match the red in The Macnab's tartan. MacNab set aside this suggestion, not wishing to call attention to his vanity, and opted instead for black, which was readily (and cheaply) available from the ink pot on his desk. With his scar thus hidden from view the MacNab proceeded to have his portrait painted by Raeburn.

Unfortunately, MacNab-- a man not normally given over to vanities-- deciding to continue to conceal his scar, wore his letter opener in his sock whenever he was out and about in his kilt. Soon, people started to comment about the "perkulier artickel" in MacNab's sock, which caused him to devise a clever, some might say cunning, plan that was to have far-reaching effects in Scotland. Taking to hand a number of rusted table knives with wooden handles (which he had smeared with soot) he instructed his servants to carry them in their right sock when ever they were kilted. Honest Highlanders that they were, they followed The MacNabs command, but not without some discomfort. Soon the rusty, 8-inch blades were cut back to a more manageable length, and the wooden handles likewise trimmed to a less cumbersome size.

These "skeeneen" (meaning the little knife) proved to be handy when out stalking the hills for stag, and soon all of MacNab's shooting parties were adopting the knife as a sign that they had been out "shooting stag" and, in imitation of the MacNab, wore it proudly to indicate their status as hunters, unaware of its originally intended purpose (emphasis added).

A fuller account of this episode can be found in the appendix of The Book of the Old Highlanders, Their Ways and the Vicissitudes of Their Lives, Vol II, privately published by Johnstone & Hamm, Edinburgh, for the Caledonia Society of Granton, in 1872.

Or one can believe whatever other nonsense they want that's been posted on this forum about sgians dubh-- especially the bull-puckey about it being a weapon, how it dates from the Scottish Wars for Independence, or that it is a self defense weapon carried for use in life and death situations (presumably when one has dropped his empty beer bottle).

Oh yes, and don't forget the one about sticking it in your sock to show your host that you don't intend to stab him as soon as he opens the door to let you in. *SHEEEEEESH*

Oh, and by the way, simply because sgians dubh have become more decorative doesn't mean that they have lost their utility; something you may have (wongly) inferred from my posts, but which I have neither stated nor implied.

[xman]

@ Macmillan of Rathdown



ty sir