Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[SlackerDrummer]

Really? Really? Why on earth would somebody wear a sword unless one were in uniform and the regs required it? Ridiculous. I hope this man didn't outfit too many members of the club in Highland dress. Sheesh!

Perhaps you should ask the gentleman whose photo you posted a while back in the vintage photos forum, Sandy. It was a scan, apparently from a book, and the text was too small for me to read completely, but I did glean that it was a clan chief in "full dress," including a broadsword. It was not a military uniform.

Modern Basket-Hilted Broadswords, though, have a specific meaning- they are part of a uniform and identify those who have achieved a particular rank in a Scottish/Highland Regiment or hold a comparable rank in a pseudo-military context (i.e. Drum Major in a Pipe Band while wearing his band uniform).

David,
This argument appears to me to be disingenuous. You are confusing the argument both with your choice of words and your example. I don't believe the "modern" basket-hilt broadsword is different from the historical version which was carried by both civilians and the military, although I may be incorrect in that assumption. I would venture to guess that most people who are wearing basket-hilt broadswords to events like highland games are wearing replicas of historical swords. So even if there is a difference between between historical swords and the modern one, your point about who has earned the right to wear the modern one is moot. More to the point, though, the basket-hilt broadsword is not at all like the modern officer's or NCO's swords, which came into being after it was no longer fashionable for citizens to wear swords (thanks to the mass production of firearms). The basket-hilt broadsword, on the other hand, was carried by civilians for centuries, so transposing military customs onto its use isn't quite fair. It would be completely fair to suggest that no one should wear the sword you earned as an officer in the Marine Corps (did I get that right?), but the two are simply not analogous.

SlackerDrummer.

What the Scots military do and wear has very little to do with what Scots civilians wear. Three hundred years ago things were very different in Scotland. These days and for at least the last 100 years or so Scots civilians do not wear swords apart from a minority of a minority, posing for pictures .

See my response to David above regarding military v. civilian, but let me make sure I've got this next part right. No one in Scotland wears swords except for the few that do?

I think the same can be said for here.

If the Americans or Canadians or wherever they may come from, with Scots roots want to do their "Old"country a disservice then carry on with this play acting because the world of swords, targes, great kilts, 1790 history re-enactment societies, Jacobite memorial societies are all very interesting to some and good fun too no doubt. But its theatre and has nothing to do with Scotland of today,yesterday, last week, last decade, last centuary and beyond.

No disrespect at all, Jock, but it may not have anything to do with Scotland of today, yesterday, last week, last decade, or last century (the 20th), but it has everything to do with Scotland beyond. There is just too much evidence of the sword's use by civilians in general, and the preference of highlanders for the basket-hilt specifically, to prove otherwise. It may be anachronistic, but it is not irrelevant.

I know you all do not mean any harm but harm you are doing by not representing my country, NOT YOURS, to the uneducated (why should most people know the facts about Scotland?) who think what you do over there is what we do over here AND WE DONT!For example, your Highland Games are nothing like ours and we don't see the need to be festooned ,at any excuse, with blades either. Yes its brigadoonary at its worst I am afraid, unintentional though it is.

First of all, let's be clear. I'm not doing anything of the sort. I don't wear a sword. I don't even own a sword. And I'm not advocating the wearing of swords, but I also think there is plenty of historical precedent for it. I stress the word historical. I am very aware of the fact that it isn't in vogue today and that it hasn't been for probably a hundred years or more. But there is nothing more brigadoonish about wearing a sword than there is about wearing one of those ridiculous "highlander" shirts or whatever they're called, but those are popular enough that even the most respected highland-wear retailers stock them. In fact, we know that swords were at some point in history worn by civilians with the kilt. And we know that shirts like that were never worn with the kilt at any point in history. Interestingly, I don't see the same ire regarding them.

[artificer]

... stuff about swords...

But there is nothing more brigadoonish about wearing a sword than there is about wearing one of those ridiculous "highlander" shirts or whatever they're called, but those are popular enough that even the most respected highland-wear retailers stock them. In fact, we know that swords were at some point in history worn by civilians with the kilt. And we know that shirts like that were never worn with the kilt at any point in history. Interestingly, I don't see the same ire regarding them.

All you need do is hit the "search" function with the term "brigadoon" or similar to see that the feeling is quite similar, and from the same, or greater, crowd.


The only way I could EVER see wearing a sword is if it were part of some "badge of office" type situation. The Knights of Columbus have one, I'm sure others do as well. EVEN then it would have to be a "Full Formal" white tie situation or other very high ceremony in the context of the organization.

Swords are a pain.

Puffy shirts are as well - I couldn't see myself EVER in one of those.

ith:

[JSFMACLJR]

Perhaps you should ask the gentleman whose photo you posted a while back in the vintage photos forum, Sandy. It was a scan, apparently from a book, and the text was too small for me to read completely, but I did glean that it was a clan chief in "full dress," including a broadsword. It was not a military uniform.
.

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.

[BobsYourUncle]

Complete and detailed instructions, with illustrations, for wearing a basket hilt in several different belted configurations can be found here: http://drummajor.net/documents/RDMADressManualv2_5.pdf

This is the dress manual of the Regimental Drum Major Association.

While others have discoursed at length, and with erudition, about the advisability of wearing a basket hilted sword with civilian attire, the actual question posed was how to do so. I hope this helps. Regards, BYU

[SlackerDrummer]

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.

Thanks for the clarification, Sandy. That is indeed the photo to which I was referring.

[davidlpope]

David,
This argument appears to me to be disingenuous. You are confusing the argument both with your choice of words and your example. I don't believe the "modern" basket-hilt broadsword is different from the historical version which was carried by both civilians and the military, although I may be incorrect in that assumption. I would venture to guess that most people who are wearing basket-hilt broadswords to events like highland games are wearing replicas of historical swords. So even if there is a difference between between historical swords and the modern one, your point about who has earned the right to wear the modern one is moot. More to the point, though, the basket-hilt broadsword is not at all like the modern officer's or NCO's swords, which came into being after it was no longer fashionable for citizens to wear swords (thanks to the mass production of firearms). The basket-hilt broadsword, on the other hand, was carried by civilians for centuries, so transposing military customs onto its use isn't quite fair. It would be completely fair to suggest that no one should wear the sword you earned as an officer in the Marine Corps (did I get that right?), but the two are simply not analogous.

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.
3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

David

[Dale Seago]

Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations).

Pretty much correct in my understanding. By The Forty-Five, at least, most Scottish Gael were too cash-poor to own a sword unless they had a hand-me-down.

As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I essentially agree, with the proviso that "not long" may be longer than some realize. The gentlemen of the clans, the "front-rankers" in the battle order, were using swords along with muskets and pistols through the 1745-46 Rising, and I recall at least one instance of a unit of Highlanders using their broadswords in a battle on the North American continent against an outnumbering force of Siberian-Americans during the French & Indian Wars a decade or so later.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.

Always looks great.

2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

I dearly love these, as long as they're confining their efforts to a portrayal of how they looked and what they fought with. At various events in California there are always reenactors who seem to think they're portraying how they fought, and I always have to put great effort into NOT going out onto the field and smacking them around to give them a sense of the ways in which they're leaving themselves open.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

See my above comment pertaining to smacking around.

By the way, in the photo of the swords & dirks, the second dirk down looks like Vince & Grace Evans' work (she does the handle carving). . .the backsword with the browned-steel basket looks Vince-ish to me too. Really sweet!!!

[SlackerDrummer]

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I don't know that we disagree as much as you might think. I said I was unsure of the "sameness" of the modern sword, which apparently is different, so I do think the wearing of historical replicas undercuts the notion that that sword (the one being worn) is in any way a misappropriated symbol of rank or achievement. Getting into the whole notion of the sword being a symbol of gentility gets tricky in this country where there is by Constitutional guarantee no social strata defining such. Either everyone is potentially a gentleman or no one is.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

Both of the above should be welcomed and encouraged I would think.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

Always a little embarrassing to me to see. I saw very similar types of travesties at pow-wows when I was a teenager and exploring in earnest that part of my family tree.

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

I think here is where we may differ, but I'm not sure what you mean by "bogus". I will concede that in looking back through the Highlanders of Scotland series (or at least the ones I can find online), most of the men brandishing swords are wearing some sort of doublet, so I assume they are in Court Dress as Sandy described (thanks again, Sandy). There is at least one, maybe two (hard to tell), who is carrying a sword and who is wearing daywear. This is to say, I'm beginning to back off of my theory that wearing the sword as part of one's finery to show one's "highlandness" was a practice even after the wearing a swords fell out of fashion. I do still think that wearing a sword with period clothing as late as the mid-19th century would be fine for someone, say, running a clan booth - with the caveat that they disclosed that they were in historical costume to those who visited their booth.

But I think we can all agree that exception must be made for Hector MacDonald.