Fake Scots Titles

[gilmore]

Living in the Commonwealth and actually knowing a few KY Colonels personally, I need to comment on this: Except for Harlan Sanders*, I haven't heard of anyone in recent years making use of their Honorable Kentucky Colonel title to promote themselves as something they're not. (A Kentucky Colonel is commissioned by the Governor, is an honorary status, has no official military or civil duties, and carries no pay or other entitlements.) I'm sure if someone were to misuse their commission in some way, the certificate could be revoked.


* Col. Harlan Sanders was from a different day and age and people were more 'forgiving' of the percieved use of the title. Folks (both the recipients and the general public) understood it to be honorary and generally didn't try to get something out of it that they weren't entitled to.

In Georgia attorneys are called "Colonel," being officers of the court, though it is old fashioned epithet rarely used in seriousness. It is wickedly fun, however, to see the puzzlement and discomfort of Yankee lawyers new to Georgia addressed in this way in court.

An attorney friend once told me he was puzzled and confused when the judge before whom he was appearing kept addressing the opposing counsel as "Mr Speaker," when his name was Murphy. Later he learned he had gone up against the Speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives.

[macwilkin]

In Georgia attorneys are called "Colonel," being officers of the court, though it is old fashioned epithet rarely used in seriousness. It is wickedly fun, however, to see the puzzlement and discomfort of Yankee lawyers new to Georgia addressed in this way in court.

An attorney friend once told me he was puzzled and confused when the judge before whom he was appearing kept addressing the opposing counsel as "Mr Speaker," when his name was Murphy. Later he learned he had gone up against the Speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives.

Good for Georgia!

T.

[Jock Scot]

Gosh it seems that the USA has its very own "minefield" when it comes to titles and protocols! I expect every country has, in its own way?

[Detroitpete]

Gosh it seems that the USA has its very own "minefield" when it comes to titles and protocols! I expect every country has, in its own way?

And to my mind--utterly ridiculous. Sure professional titles and military titles (when approriate and for active service) make sense. But Grand PooBah Sir Knight of the_______ ? Doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps it is my American--and Yankee experience that makes this hard for me to understand. If one is a member of some organization which uses odd titles in it's membership--then fine and dandy. But these 'titles' are for use only within that organization, are they not?

Again, this is all ONLY my opinion--but I think there's enough self engrandisement in US society. Adding to it with fake titles is superfluent.

But then again, my main interest in Heraldry--the heading of this forum--is the procedure for manipulation of symbols and the symbology reflected in the art under a specific vocabulary.

[macwilkin]

And to my mind--utterly ridiculous. Sure professional titles and military titles (when approriate and for active service) make sense. But Grand PooBah Sir Knight of the_______ ? Doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps it is my American--and Yankee experience that makes this hard for me to understand. If one is a member of some organization which uses odd titles in it's membership--then fine and dandy. But these 'titles' are for use only within that organization, are they not?

Again, this is all ONLY my opinion--but I think there's enough self engrandisement in US society. Adding to it with fake titles is superfluent.

But then again, my main interest in Heraldry--the heading of this forum--is the procedure for manipulation of symbols and the symbology reflected in the art under a specific vocabulary.

Yes -- fraternal titles should only be used in in conjunction with that particular organization. To the "profane", some fraternal titles may seem silly, but rest assured, there are reasons and symbolism behind him.

Although this American has no issue with genuine titles that are rightly bestowed. We could do with a lot more tradition, INMHO. George Washington, for example, saw nothing wrong with heraldry and the American Republic, and frequently displayed his personal arms on everything from his table service to his coach.

T.

[Detroitpete]

Yes -- fraternal titles should only be used in in conjunction with that particular organization. To the "profane", some fraternal titles may seem silly, but rest assured, there are reasons and symbolism behind him.

Although this American has no issue with genuine titles that are rightly bestowed. We could do with a lot more tradition, INMHO. George Washington, for example, saw nothing wrong with heraldry and the American Republic, and frequently displayed his personal arms on everything from his table service to his coach.

T.

At the same time, there is no law or mandate that states that the 'profane' need to accept or even consider these titles, regardless of thier reasons or symbolism. I appreciate heraldry, but as someone who lives in a country with no peerage, I most likely do not give them the importance as some others might.

Yes George Washington is said to have enjoyed heraldry.
Several of our important civilian and military learders have and most likely, still do enjoy the art and science of heraldry. Even Ronald Reagan's interesting path to arms is an example--however, this does not change my thinking with regard to peerage titles, and military titles (outside of active service) used in the US. It does inform my understanding and thank you for that.

To think that someone would actually PAY for a peerage title...
To think that one feels the need to add a title to their name that was not given them...
To think that in the US, one might actually expect other citizens to accept and defer to such a peerage title?

Complete self engrandisement----just my opinion.

[macwilkin]

At the same time, there is no law or mandate that states that the 'profane' need to accept or even consider these titles, regardless of thier reasons or symbolism. I appreciate heraldry, but as someone who lives in a country with no peerage, I most likely do not give them the importance as some others might.

Ah, but you truly believe America has no "peerage", then I have some ocean-front property in Arizona you might be interested in.

We have an an aristocracy since the Revolution. It is not well known that both Washington & Adams actually demanded citizens refer to them as "Your Excellency".

Yes George Washington is said to have enjoyed heraldry.
Several of our important civilian and military learders have and most likely, still do enjoy the art and science of heraldry. Even Ronald Reagan's interesting path to arms is an example--however, this does not change my thinking with regard to peerage titles, and military titles (outside of active service) used in the US. It does inform my understanding and thank you for that.

To think that someone would actually PAY for a peerage title...
To think that one feels the need to add a title to their name that was not given them...
To think that in the US, one might actually expect other citizens to accept and defer to such a peerage title?

Complete self engrandisement----just my opinion.

And btw, the word "profane" in this instance is not pejorative, but refers to those who are not members of fraternal organizations such as Freemasonry.

And as far as fraternal titles go, the highest one can achieve in the fraternity that my family has belong to since before immigrating from Scotland is simply "Brother", the same one born by Washington AND Robert Burns. Not self-engrandisement at all.

Horses for courses...

T.

[Dale Seago]

To think that someone would actually PAY for a peerage title...
To think that one feels the need to add a title to their name that was not given them...
To think that in the US, one might actually expect other citizens to accept and defer to such a peerage title?

Complete self engrandisement----just my opinion.

Just want to point out that we have a Baron on this forum who purchased his title, and whom I've known for decades. We first met during the Vietnam war when we were in different branches of American military service, he being in the Army and I being a Marine. I later fell to the Dark Side and got an Army commission, and at one point we ended up serving as officers in the same unit for several years.

Anyway, I can state unequivocally that most of the above description does not apply to him. The Barony was originally associated with his clan. He's passionate about it, and uses the name and his personal funds to support sanctuaries and other conservation efforts for endangered and exploited animals. He is a person of all-too-rare integrity who gives, materially, far more than anything he gets in prestige from being a Scottish Baron.

[gilmore]

...Although this American has no issue with genuine titles that are rightly bestowed. We could do with a lot more tradition, INMHO. George Washington, for example, saw nothing wrong with heraldry and the American Republic, and frequently displayed his personal arms on everything from his table service to his coach.

T.

Not all of Washington's contemporaries held that view. We have an opinion written by collateral ancestor of mine, one of the Virginia Maurys, who definitely held the view that coats of arms, crests and such had no place in a republic. Jefferson also decried national holidays, since at the time most were associated with events in a royal family.

Personally, I think lifetime honors, such as the UK's orders, knighthoods and life peerages are a good thing. It's good to recognize people who have made significant contributions to society (and not necessarily significant monetary contributions to the party in power. )

[Lallans]

Since they actually mean something there, I prefer to leave the British titles alone. However, drawing upon the fact that through the sale of plots sold in science-themed stores in the 1990s I hold deed and title to real estate on both celestial bodies , I style myself as both Emperor Of The Moon* and Grand Lord-Protector of Io!

* in defiance of the pretender, Al Gore.