Fake Scots Titles

[O'Callaghan]

It is, however, possible to purchase an English title of Lord of the Manor. However, the correct style is either Fred Bloggs, Lord of Little Mucking OR Squire Bloggs, to take a made up example. IOW, it doesn't entitle you to use Lord in front of a name, which would indicate a peer, or in some cases customary usage by the son of a peer.

This type of title passes with the land, and is attached to the last part of the land not already sold off, which might be as little as a square foot. The title of Lord of Little Holland was actually given away in a newspaper competition, and was attached to a strip of beach, the rest of the estate having long since been sold off. Obviously, the title can't be sold multiple times to different people.

The best known modern example of someone who acquired a title by buying a property is Andrew Lloyd-Webber, the composer of musicals, or I should say Squire Lloyd-Webber, but note that he cannot style himself Lord Lloyd-Webber, although he would be lord OF somewhere-or-other. To be fair, he did buy the whole estate, but then I'm sure he could afford to.

We used to live a short distance from an old manor house, still inhabited by by the hereditary squire. He always wore a tweed suit and matching hat, and habitually rode an old bicycle. You would know it was his bike because the freewheel mechanism skipped, making a distinctive sound. He did own a very old car, what used to be called a bull-nosed Morris, which he took out perhaps once a year. I think one time he gave us eggs from his chickens, although I can't remember what good turn we had done him. A true eccentric, but his title wasn't bought.

[McClef]

I should point out that Andrew Lloyd Webber has been a Peer of the Realm since 1997 and thus has the title of Baron in his own right.

[Drac]

I have a queston on this. The titles are for fun. I got one for my wife as a gift last year. She takes it no more seriously than owning property on the moon or having a star named after her. They're done for fun.

Now on the part that the funds go toward conservation, for replanting trees or for supporting historic site. Are they claiming all these are just scams as well?

Jim

[Sketraw]

I have a queston on this. The titles are for fun. I got one for my wife as a gift last year. She takes it no more seriously than owning property on the moon or having a star named after her. They're done for fun.

Now on the part that the funds go toward conservation, for replanting trees or for supporting historic site. Are they claiming all these are just scams as well?

Jim

Yes Jim, sse the terms and conditions for one of the scammers Dunan Castle -

4. The title “Laird of Dunans Castle” or “Lady of Dunans Castle” shall be granted under the laws of Scotland, (they are not in a position to grant any form of titles) and shall only pertain to the individual(s) whose name(s) is(are) entered on a valid deed of entitlement.

5. As the title ‘Laird’ or the associated ‘Lady’ (in this context ‘Lady’ is specifically relating only to the ownership of land, (they dont own the Land) not anything else, nor any other type of title) only accrues to a person who owns land in Scotland, your title will relate specifically to one square foot of land set in the grounds of Dunans Castle, which you will ‘own’ on an informal basis, (thers the crunch) and will be referred to specifically in your Deed of Entitlement. This land will be identified by an ID number at Dunans on a plan derived from the deeds of Dunans. You will receive a plan of the site with the approximate position of ‘your’ piece of land marked, this will be for illustrative purposes only. The exact position of your square foot of land will be derived from the ID number and relative to two permanent markers set out on site by Charles Dixon-Spain, Laird of Dunans Castle.

See http://scottishlaird.com/?page_id=29

8. Trees planted in honour of Lairds and Ladies, will not necessarily be planted upon the one square foot of land owned by that Laird or Lady. (again the so called Laird or Lady does not own the Land) The actual siting of the tree will depend upon the topographical, environmental and ecological considerations which pertain onsite. The planting of trees will take place only at the correct time of year and notification of planting will be sent to the laird or lady in question. ScottishLaird.com undertakes to identify each tree individually.

9. The Sponsorship of trees, whether native or exotic, does not imply ownership of those trees nor the ground they stand upon. Nor do any rights over those trees accrue to the sponsor, other than the right to be identified as sponsor of those trees or tree.

Again its not a bit of FUN its a Scam!! Dont forget they, that is Charles Dixon-Spain, Duncan Castle own the land and all folks are doing is rebuilding a burnt out castle for him to later re-sell if he desires. It has nothing to do with conservation but profit People would be better sending money to the National Trust for Scotland, then it may do some good for Scotlands Heritage.

[O'Callaghan]

I should point out that Andrew Lloyd Webber has been a Peer of the Realm since 1997 and thus has the title of Baron in his own right.

I wasn't aware of that, but nonetheless, he did become a squire through buying an estate when he wasn't yet a peer.

FWIW, he probably still isn't Lord Webber, because the title of a peerage is still based on a physical location, not a surname, and it doesn't have to be the name of his manor (after all, many people have multiple titles with widely scattered geographical links).

Some people have asked for, and sometimes recieved, titles that match their surname, when elevated to the peerage. Others of leftish inclinations have been granted titles named after working class inner city neighbourhoods at their own request.

[Downunder Kilt]

Just for the sake of completeness

Andrew Lloyd Webber was knighted by Elizabeth II in 1992.

In 1997, Elizabeth II made him a life peer as Baron Lloyd-Webber, of Sydmonton in the County of Hampshire. He sits as a Conservative member of the House of Lords.

[McClef]

I wasn't aware of that, but nonetheless, he did become a squire through buying an estate when he wasn't yet a peer.

FWIW, he probably still isn't Lord Webber, because the title of a peerage is still based on a physical location, not a surname, and it doesn't have to be the name of his manor (after all, many people have multiple titles with widely scattered geographical links).

Some people have asked for, and sometimes recieved, titles that match their surname, when elevated to the peerage. Others of leftish inclinations have been granted titles named after working class inner city neighbourhoods at their own request.

A couple of points:

The word "Squire" has had several uses in history, including that of property holders. Lloyd Webber purchased Sydmonton Court in the late 1970s but did not go around calling himself "Squire Lloyd Webber" nor was he known as such when referred to by others. He was not like Squire Trelawney in Treasure Island who is well known by that appellation.

Hereditary squireships in this respect were due to inheriting the property (as per the gentleman you cited earlier). But if the property is then sold (such as because of death duties or simply lack of money to sustain the upkeep of the property) then the honorific would pass to the new purchaser.

A territorial designation is not an automatic requirement of a peerage nor does it require any residence or administration of the area that the peerage mentions. This may have been common in past centuries but is no longer the case. The Dukes of Devonshire have happily lived in and owned land in Derbyshire and the Dukes of Norfolk in Sussex with little or no actual connection to the areas from which they derive their titles for some considerable time. The same applies for royal duchies with the exemptions of those of Cornwall and Lancaster which are still administered by the Crown.

Whereas a territorial aspect is often included in a new creation, it is nevertheless not part of the main title. There is the name then there will be a comma, and what follows the comma is not required to be used.

So Baron Lloyd-Webber may be called Lord Lloyd-Webber without the territorial bit having to be mentioned. Interestingly enough his surname never used to be hyphenated though!

All new peerages are life ones and not heritable. The last possible heritable ones were that of George Thomas, former Speaker of the House of Commons who became Viscount Tonypandy, of Rhondda in the County of Mid Glamorgan (note the comma and Viscount Whitelaw, of Penrith in the County of Cumbria again note the comma) Thomas was unmarried and had no heir in any case and Whitelaw only had female heirs who could could not inherit).

The practice had been that former Prime Ministers would be given an Earldom (such as Clement Atlee, Anthony Eden and Harold MacMillan) and former Speakers would be given a Viscountcy if they so desired.

Churchill was even offered a Dukedom, which he declined. Since MacMillan (who became the Earl of Stockton but took 20 years following leaving office to accept his Peerage) former PMs have only elected to become Barons and Baronesses which is the non-heritable rank allowed under the Life Peerages legislation. Theoretically Harold Wilson and James Callaghan could have become Earls and Margaret Thatcher could have been a Countess and therefore have had an heritable title to pass on to their male heirs but as this no longer gives the heirs an automatic right to sit in the House of Lords I assume they saw it as pointless. Two former PMs - John Major and Tony Blair have so far not taken up the option to become Peers in the first place and neither did Edward Heath when he finally stood down from the Commons.

The territorial aspect following the comma is not necessarily because of someone's alleged political leanings. It could be a reference to where they were born and/or raised or where they served as a Member of Parliament or where they live or somewhere that has a special significance for them. It is also a useful way of differentiating a Peer from someone else who might have the same name such as Baron Smith or Baron Jones.

[Sketraw]

Well folks as promised and I am sure no surprise to anyone. I am one of the people behind Fake Scots Titles there are others but it is up to them if they wish to reveal their identities.

I would have done so before but there were a few issues I had to deal with first. Anyway just wanted to be up-front.