Acceptable colors for Prince Charlie jacket

[rondo]

I wish to keep this post focused on the PC jacket and conversions of tailcoats to a PC jacket:

I have seen pictures of black, navy, white, tartan, burgandy, and green PC jackets. I understand Saxon tradition for black tie and white tie. I am curious, given the variety of colors for the PC jacket, if there are firm social conventions for what colors are proper for a PC jacket in the context of attending black tie and white tie events.

Specifically, I have found a sand colored tailcoat that is beautiful. I am hesitant to purchase it even though the price is great because I wonder if it would be suitable for formal events after being converted to a PC [I would never wear this tailcoat to any white tie event as it is, this color, as a tailcoat just would not work].

My formal kilt [not yet made] will be in Lochoran's ancient Dunbar tartan, with much softer shades than the modern tartan. I was initialy thinking of a bespoke PC in a very dark brown, but now wonder if that or the sand tailcoat conversion both would be straining convention just too much. I also briefly considered a bias cut PC in the same tartan but decided that is just too much tartan for my taste [perhaps a bias cut waistcoat in the same tartan].

My apologies in advance if this topic has been beaten to death elsewhere. If it has please link me to the threads. [search feature is having some dificulty on this computer for some reason]

Thanks,
Rondo

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hmm... okay, here are my thoughts. (1) In my opinion, despite what the tartan merchants on The Royal Mile might have in their window, I think it would be a mistake to purchase a Prince Charlie coatee in any colour other than black. (2) Why? Simply because there are other styles of Highland jacket which are better suited to being made up in colours or in tartan.

Were it I, I would probably opt for an Argyll-style jacket in either tartan cut on the bias, or in silk velvet with either matching grosgrain or moire silk cuffs and lapels (with the collar in black velvet). Being something of a waistcoat junkie I'd have two waistcoats-- one cut on the bias, the other from silk to match my lapels and cuffs.

As to colours, well, the choice is yours. Plum, black, burgundy, dark brown, and navy all look nice in velvet and would probably go well with your kilt.

I am in total agreement with you about the tail coat conversion. I wouldn't bother to convert the sand coloured tail coat into a Prince Charlie coatee, for the same reason I would avoid wearing it in the first place, ie: the social convention is that evening dress is supposed to be dark in colour.

[MacLowlife]

Thanks for your interesting question. I am sure other people will offer their well-reasoned responses, but here is my $.02 worth.

For some reason, brown and tan are considered "informal" colors, at least in most Western European/ American circumstances. This seems to be true for fabric and leather both. For that reason, I would advise that you avoid a PC ( or any formal jacket) in any shade of brown if you wish to be traditional.

May I suggest that you consider a darker, slightly bluer green for your PC, if you want something unusual? As you look, you will find jackets made in many different shades of green, but I think darker ones look better. Despite the ancient color scheme, my monitor shows Locharron's colors to be a yellow-ish red and a sort of robin's egg blue-green. Rather than try to match either of those, especially by converting an existing tailcoat, I would recommend a strong complimentary color. Like a dark green. Not olive.

I have no idea about quality, much less color or shade, but Tartankilts.com offers a green PC at a very low price. Maybe someone else can speak to the specifics of that item or at least the company. If you were planning on going bespoke, don't spend all of that money on brown...

If by some chance you run across a brown VELVET jacket, you might, just maybe be able to disregard what I have said above, but I do not think I have ever seen a brown velvet tailcoat.

(I see that M o R has already covered this fairly well as I was typing. I agree entirely with his suggestion of a velvet jacket. Again, I vote for green, maybe with black facings ...)

thanks again

[piperdbh]

I'd like to see the sand-colored tailcoat, and I think it would make a pretty Prince Charlie, but dark colors rule in formal wear.

[Whidbey78]

It might look good, but as has been pointed out, it might be a little "off" in some formal events. Colors like that work very well for daywear though.

An added bonus to a black PC, vs many other colors, is that it would be considered acceptable for any occasion where a PC would be appropriate. Sometimes another color seems a bit too "festive." They have times and places where they work well, and others where they might not. Black always works.

If you want to do it though, go for it. You might find a time and place to wear it, but I doubt it would see as much use as a black one would. Just my $.02USD.

[madmacs]

I've only ever seen white in a PC paired with dress stewart... looked ok but i wouldnt wear it...

My Q would be is it truly a black or white tie event you want it for, or just for something dressy... if its where people are wearing straight ties and suits then your tailcoat would probably look ok, maybe dress it down by wearing a kilt belt instead of the vest though

[rondo]

Thanks for the replies. I do appreciate it. I sort of already had sussed out that the sand color was 'off' even for a tailcoat. I may look at the velvet in an Argyll and the bias cut waistcoat could be very sharp with that. The Argyll with a 3 button and a 5 button waistcoat sounds like the ticket. I think I'll take MoR's advice, save up for something trully special.
Rondo

[Jock Scot]

Thanks for the replies. I do appreciate it. I sort of already had sussed out that the sand color was 'off' even for a tailcoat. I may look at the velvet in an Argyll and the bias cut waistcoat could be very sharp with that. The Argyll with a 3 button and a 5 button waistcoat sounds like the ticket. I think I'll take MoR's advice, save up for something trully special.
Rondo

This is, I think, your best course.

[OC Richard]

It does bring up the question:

Why are Prince Charlies nearly always black, but on the other hand Mostrose & Kenmore doublets are quite common in Burgundy, deep blue, etc?

I just now hauled out my old Highland Dress catalogues.

In the 1936 Anderson catalogue their "coatee" (what we call a "Prince Charlie") is illustrated in two colours, a blue halfway between Navy and royal and a green halfway between Kelly and Archer.

The green Prince Charlie is worn with lace jabot, a tartan waistcoat cut on the bias, buckled brogues, and diced castellated hose. Quite different from the Prince Charlie's common modern role with black bow tie, black waistcoat, ghillies, and cream hose.

The waistcoat on the blue-jacketed model can't be seen, but he's wearing ghillies with buckles and straight-topped diced hose.

Their Kenmore Doublet is likewise shown in green and blue.

In my 1938 Paisley catalogue their Montrose is illustrated in brilliant royal blue. The accompanying text says "a velvet jacket which may be brown, green, marone, navy, or black." Evidently brown was a perfectly acceptable Evening Dress colour at that time.

Paisley's "Prince Charlie coatee" is illustrated in black. No other colours are mentioned. The text says "The vest may be black or red." (Note 'vest' rather than 'waistcoat'.)

Now to a 1950s Anderson catalogue which says "The coatee (Prince Charlie) is one of the best styles especially for the younger man... it is usually made of black cloth... worn with a white evening shirt, wing collar, and black tie."

Note the change in fashion between the 1936 and the 1950s Anderson catalogues.

This 1950s catalogue also has a "standard doublet" (what we call "regulation doublet") listed only in black.

Its "Kenmore doublet" has the following: "worn with lace jabot and belt. Besides being an excellent Evening coat, it is also specially suitable for the bridegroom at a wedding. In green cloth or in blue, green, wine, or other coloured velvet, this is the de luxe Kilt Outfit." (The belt, when listed seperately, is called a "Dirk Belt".)

[Jordan]

I know it was mentioned that tan and brown are more informal colours and won't really work but i saw a light tan sherirrifmuir doublet in a local kilt shop the other day and it looked quite smart,I'm not sure I would wear it but the guy said it had had some interest.
[/OT]

Jordan