Which Clan?

[davidlpope]

That's funny, because he essentially agreed with an argument that is more often made by those on the other side of the debate.

Perhaps it's because I'm a student of language, but I see his point...and don't entirely agree with it. It's sort of like arguing over British vs. American English. The British will say we've changed English, and they are undoubtedly right about that. Then they'll imply they haven't, and they're undoubtedly wrong about that. If such a person as Robin Hood actually existed, he didn't sound like Kevin Costner, and he didn't sound like Cary Elwes either. But he most likely did pronounce all his r's. Sometimes I wonder where the British think all those post-vocalic r's in their written language come from. MacMillan of Rathdown is essentially agreeing that the British (in most English dialects) have dropped their post-vocalic r's, calling it "moving with the times", while implying that the Americans haven't also "moved with the times" in some ways as well. (I don't mean to trivialize the subject of clans and their symbols, but let's just say that some people get het up about language as well.)

What a great subject! I've been intrigued about why the rhotic r exists in the Piedmont of NC, but much less near the NC coast. Is it due to English emigrants from Bristol? The influence of German settlement? What books would you suggest as related reading?

[McElmurry]

In agreement with what Jock has written, I will add that from the heraldic standpoint of "tartan inheritance" (as opposed to any sort of genetic/DNA inheritance) one would usually assume the named tartan of their nearest Scottish ancestor, whether that was in the paternal or maternal line. So, if you go back two generations on your mother's side before you reach a Scottish ancestor, but have to go back six on your father's side, then you would most likely adopt the tartan that first occurs in the maternal line. It is this practice that has led to the concept of "wearing your mother's tartan" if there is no clan tartan associated with your surname.

Ok, let me try out your system.

To my knowledge none of my ancestors have set a precedent by wearing a tartan.

My surname is Germanic.

My Mother’s maiden name is McElmurry. My McElmurry kin have been in North American since at least 1750. They came from Ulster and are Scots-Irish by family tradition.

My paternal great-grandmother was a Crichton. Her grandfather came to the US from Scotland.

Using the closest name regardless of line I am a Morrison

How did I do?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Ok, let me try out your system.

To my knowledge none of my ancestors have set a precedent by wearing a tartan.

My surname is Germanic.

My Mother’s maiden name is McElmurry. My McElmurry kin have been in North American since at least 1750. They came from Ulster and are Scots-Irish by family tradition.

My paternal great-grandmother was a Crichton. Her grandfather came to the US from Scotland.

Using the closest name regardless of line I am a Morrison

How did I do?

Well, you did very well. McElmurry being a variant of Morrison (mac ghillie moire), and also your Mother's maiden name, unless you have an aversion to red tartans, that would be the obvious (and in my opinion, best) choice.

You, on the other hand, may feel it more admirable to be a Crichton.

[macwilkin]

Apologies to Rondo for posting before thinking. I'm upset about another matter and didn't take time to cool down.

Respectfully,

T.

[rondo]

Respectfully, though: aren't you being just as snobbish in your generalizations towards traditionalists? I respect your viewpoints, even though I may not agree, but you don't seem to reciprocate the respect. If I am mistaken, then my sincere apologies.

Respect is a two-way street.

T.

No apologies necessary. I honestly don't believe I'm being a snob. I am happy to have anyone wear anything they desire, in whatever manner they wish, even traditionalist. I simply gave voice to what seems to be a common sentiment in several threads that many self-proclaimed traditionalist seem to share. I'd be happy to let this die now. I'm sure upon re-reading the comment that got under my skin that I quite over reacted. It sometimes happens. In any event I'll be spending more time on the Modern forum...it seems a better fit.
Rondo

[Jock Scot]

Do you know I think many of you are over-thinking this tartan thing. Yes we in Scotland have pretty strong ideas of how, when and where the tartan kilt should be worn, but we do seem to be pretty relaxed about who should wear the kilt. We have a Pole who lives nearby and for as long as I can remember he has worn a tartan kilt to events that the rest of us Scots go to. We have a Dutchman who also wears a tartan kilt on occasion and in both cases I have never heard a word of dissent from any of the locals and I have never heard a local ask them about the particular tartan they are wearing.

Now we have three Scottish members on this website, there are probably more, who do break the mould by happily wearing more than one clan tartan and I have not heard one of them complaining that their windows have been broken, tyres let down, or
insulted in any way for doing so. But I know for a fact that these three know how, when, and where the kilt should be worn and the conventions that go with it.

Now I/we have some strong opinions about Clan tartans, the kilt, conventions, where WE are happy to wear the kilt. I don't think I, or anyone else would say in general terms "don't wear the kilt". On one or two occasions it has been firmly advised by me and others that on certain specific occasions it would be better not to. Why? Well there are certain unusual pitfalls , social ones, that the unwary could tread.

There is no kilt police, there is no Clan police, there is no tartan police, there is no pedigree police, but we do have our way of doing things and we are happy with that and it really is done in a gentle way-----we must be happy with it because we seem reluctant to change. Why? Well I suppose we like the way we do it.

Make no mistake the Clan thing does go deep, but most of us are aware one way or another that tartans are a two hundred year old fashion fad,and not built on altogether sound foundations. Nevertheless for all its failings the modern kilt and most tartans are not more than two hundred years old(older than many countries) and it is ours. Where I think people get confused are these family names, clan names, tartan entitlements, and the rest. On a day to day basis (dare I say this, oh heck I will) most Scots and I repeat most Scots never even think about it.

I think you must understand that we on this website go into the minute details of Scots history, tartan, kilts, bonnets, kilt pins, shirt colour, direction of the wind etc,that few Scots and no doubt even fewer of the others in this world even know about yet alone think about.

Come on chaps enjoy you hobby the kilt, accept that it is a national dress (with all it failings), accept that the Scots do have strong opinions over their national attire , whilst some Scots and I have to include myself in this, have to accept that others do not see the kilt, its history, its conventions as important. I don't think we are going to go to war over it, do you? If you ask a Scot on this website for an opinion, you may get one and it may not be the answer you were expecting or wanted, but please don't get hot under the collar over it , when all said and done it is only an opinion.

[McElmurry]

Well, you did very well. McElmurry being a variant of Morrison (mac ghillie moire), and also your Mother's maiden name, unless you have an aversion to red tartans, that would be the obvious (and in my opinion, best) choice.

Well CMSNA also lists a green tartan or hunting version. I noticed the late Chief, Dr. Iain M. Morrison was wearing Ancient Red in a photo on the website. Do they tend to wear the red more than the green?

[rondo]

Do you know I think many of you are over-thinking this tartan thing... Come on chaps enjoy you hobby the kilt... when all said and done it is only an opinion.

As always, Jock, your wisdom cuts through. Thanks.
Rondo

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Progress is made by those who push the envelope.

Couldn't agree more, and that was the point of my comment. In the instance of Highland attire, it has been the traditionalists (ie; kilt wearers in Scotland) who have "pushed the envelope" for the past two centuries. Howie Nicholsby and Stewart Christie are less than a mile apart in Edinburgh, and both are regarded as top notch tailors. One shop is very avant garde, whilst the other caters to the traditional crowd. Here the envelope is still being pushed. But it is being pushed by people who have traditionally worn the kilt, not by people, in the remote corners of a former Empire, who if left to themselves would have, and probably did, discard the kilt as impractical outside of the Scottish Highlands.

So, as I have said elsewhere, perhaps it is the traditionalists who have moved with the times.

[rondo]

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