"Practice" Targe

[Mark E.]

Just remember that even a low velocity fat lead ball, provided it can pierce the skin, may still be lethal due to the clothing and other foreign particles it can introduce into the wound which will set up a nitus of infection down the road. I believe there was a scene in "Master and Commander" where they extract just such a low velocity ball wound and fish out the clothing patch and hold it up to the covering garment to make sure they got most of it out. Some folks used to duel in the nude to prevent this very thing.

Did they have the means to glue wood back in the day? I wonder if modern plywood would have greater density and resistance than nailed together planks (or however they built targes back then).

I'm looking to build one but will probably start with some very lightweight wood so it won't be difficult to carry around all day, then build one of these battle ready ones down the road.

Couldn't agree more on the first part-In the American Civil War, the condition of the textile garmets after so many days in the field would lend to some ghastly invections with even the slightest of skin penetrations. Not sure on the dueling side-do you refer to firearms or blade weapons? Visible muscle would be a negative, as your opponent would see the intent of your offense and be able to counter, wheras clothing of most types would afford at least some sort of advantage. I have done some 1 and 2 on one fighting, in just a shirt-to greater success than shirtless with a lower garmet. That, combined with the luxury of duelling being fairly restricted to those persons with means, and by default, better hygeine.

Hide glues were in existance, and widespread-boiled hooves, tendon, and other fun things rendered. The folks in the shield using world recognized the value of plywood for the same reasons we do-lighter, stronger. Problem was, I believe, de-lamination-after all, hide glue is water soluable-hence the mechanical additions to hold things together.

If you are serious about a battle targe, and worried about weight...Do thin light laminated panels, but utilize titanium as a reinforcer behind your leather. Leather was originally meant to turn a blade, not as a decoration (my intrepetation here). The titanium will stop a thrusting sword penetration, and add a bit more defense against, say, a spear or other polearm. Remember, too-I am not trying to kill your shield-and I will only hit it if I can damage your arm, force you to stop using your sword, or... Another idea for you is a buckler-light formed metal. Not very useful against hacking weapons, but for purely thrusting types, is very useful. Even then-remember, "Train heavy, Fight light"

[jason10mm]

My understanding is that it was pistol dueling where at least some participants stripped to the waist or fought in the nude. A stabbing weapon like a rapier would pierce cloth, not tear pieces of it and imbed it into a wound. I'm sure those flowery shirts served a dual purpose of enabling a swordsman to move at ease and obscuring his body to a degree.

Heh heh, I don't do any fight reenacting so expensing titanium plates is a bit impractical :P I'd just like a light "show" targe for ren fairs and the like and a heavy practical one just to have fun or hang on a wall. I have a little end table with a broken leg that has a surface made of some sort of pine board or particle board surface about the right size for a targe. My concern is that driving nails into it might split it, so I may have to resort to drilled holes and glue to hold the upholstery tacks. I'll do a DIY post when I get around to it. I'm almost done with my first sporran so I'll post that when I get a chance.

This forum has really cut into my xbox time

[macwilkin]

Couldn't agree more on the first part-In the American Civil War, the condition of the textile garmets after so many days in the field would lend to some ghastly invections with even the slightest of skin penetrations.

True, but during the first part of the War, a majority of soldiers North and South were armed with smoothbore muskets with an effective range of about 100-200 yards at most. There are several documented stories from "my" battle, Wilson's Creek, where soldiers report roundballs fired from beyond that range hitting them, only to be deflected by clothing and "boucing off", leaving behind only bruised and sore skin.

At our battle in August, 1861, infantry units manouvered within 30-40 yards of each other to be effective with their weapons; the Federals armed with the "pumpkin slingers" and many of the Southern forces armed with shotguns and civilian hunting rifles. The rifles in particular, while very accurate, were not military weapons.

With the introduction of the rifled musket and the "minie ball" we see penetration of the body, coupled with a "key-hole" effect. The rifled musket's range, 350-500 yards, and the rifling grooves, which give direction and purpose (think of a quaterback throwing a football) cause the minie ball to slam into the body, while at the same time flattening out and leaving nasty wounds -- when one of these projectiles hits bone in the arm or leg, it shatters it, causing compound fratures and eventually amputation.

Sorry to lapse back into one of my ranger programs. I used to give the medical talks at the makeshift field hospital on the battlefield.

T.

[macwilkin]

Oh, armor was not at all useless against firearms! Another common misconception is that shields are only defensive. The SCA guys around here don't like to play with us any more because we insist on using targes as offensive weapons. And yes, you're right- this is a very interesting test! And Mark- one thing we demo on occasion is the damage caused by striking a targe on the edge, as opposed to the face. That might be an interesting unit for this particular test. Just a suggestion!

Ah, but the government forces at Culloden found that by thrusting their bayonets to the Jacobite on their right, instead of front and center, they could break a Highland Charge.

T.

[Mark E.]

With the introduction of the rifled musket and the "minie ball" we see penetration of the body, coupled with a "key-hole" effect. The rifled musket's range, 350-500 yards, and the rifling grooves, which give direction and purpose (think of a quaterback throwing a football) cause the minie ball to slam into the body, while at the same time flattening out and leaving nasty wounds -- when one of these projectiles hits bone in the arm or leg, it shatters it, causing compound fratures and eventually amputation.

T.

You betcha-also, the slow moving ball would actually "punch" out an entire section of bone-and you can't match up something that has an inch gap. Plus, it would come blasting out the other side, leaving a wider trauma path due to the bone passing thru. Modern .223 rounds are very prone to tumble, given velocities-which is assumed to cover their lack of knockdown compared to the older .30 caliber rounds.

[macwilkin]

You betcha-also, the slow moving ball would actually "punch" out an entire section of bone-and you can't match up something that has an inch gap. Plus, it would come blasting out the other side, leaving a wider trauma path due to the bone passing thru. Modern .223 rounds are very prone to tumble, given velocities-which is assumed to cover their lack of knockdown compared to the older .30 caliber rounds.

Exactly. One reason why all modern military rounds have a full-metal jacket to ensure a relatively "clean & neat" wound.

Whenever I would give medical talks, I would usually have at least one doctor or nurse in the crowd, and they would confirm that compound fractures are still a bugger to deal with in a medical sense.

And to confirm your comments, I forgot to mention that Reinhard Heydrich was not killed by the bomb that Jan Kubiš threw into his touring car in Prague in 1942, but by the horse hair stuffing and other foreign particles from the seat to enter the wound, causing blood-poisoning.

T.

[Mark E.]

Exactly. One reason why all modern military rounds have a full-metal jacket to ensure a relatively "clean & neat" wound.

And to confirm your comments, I forgot to mention that Reinhard Heydrich was not killed by the bomb that Jan Kubiš threw into his touring car in Prague in 1942, but by the horse hair stuffing and other foreign particles from the seat to enter the wound, causing blood-poisoning.

T.

Yup-and hollow points are against the rules for obvious reasons, right? Full metal jackets also greatly reduce the fouling, and keep automatic weapons, well, automatic.

Dang, and here we are slapping furry hides to the backs of our defenses. Oh, well, germs are a myth, right?

I have a sniffle, I must be off to have some humors removed from me blood...

Mark

[Mark E.]

My understanding is that it was pistol dueling where at least some participants stripped to the waist or fought in the nude. A stabbing weapon like a rapier would pierce cloth, not tear pieces of it and imbed it into a wound. I'm sure those flowery shirts served a dual purpose of enabling a swordsman to move at ease and obscuring his body to a degree.


This forum has really cut into my xbox time

Point of fact, a number of years back, a group I was associated with/did some intructing wanted to "test" a range of clothing, with regard to what was ideal for combative conditions. We trialed leins, the poofy 14th/15th century shirts, leaner 17th century ones, sleeveless/commoner type, and nothing (this got interesting at times, since we were a mixed group). Our regional adherences were western Europe to Spain, likewise our weaponry. Conclusions came down to singular combat, the conservatively poofy shirts were the best. In open battle, where polearms may be used, well, the sleeveless or nothing was a no contest.

Looking forward to your targe rendition-and should we meet, may have a "targe only" fight, to test things...Shield bashing is an art!

Mark

[jason10mm]

My understanding is that the Hauge Convention prohibited bullets designed to fragment (the legendary "Dum-Dum" manufactured bullets) based initially on their "inhumane" wounds but also on the inability for surgeons to locate and remove all the metal fragments. With the advent of x-rays the latter issue is not a concern (as much). Modern full metal jacketed rounds, particularly the lighter, faster 5.56 rounds DO infact break up and shatter if they hit with sufficient velocity, makes a quite characteristic radiographic spray of particles. This effect lead to the initial enthusiasm for the lighter rounds, which was subsequently dampened by the poor performance when the bullet was slowed by shortening barrel lengths and the jacketed case was thickened to accomodate greater penetration for machine gun use.

Anyway, my historical interpretation.

Back on topic, I'm impressed that a wooden targe of manageble weight could stop a large caliber lead ball. Do we know how targes were repaired? I sorta figured that once they were pierced or hit they were discarded or remade as the underlying integrity of the wood would have been compromised, but surely at least some examples of repaired targes exist, no? If I wanted to "battle damage" a targe, would the rips and cuts in the leather face be glued back down, patched somehow, or just tacked over with nails and tacks? Every replica targe I've ever seen has been a pristine work of art, be interesting to see one all bashed up, give it some character

[Nighthawk]

Ah, but the government forces at Culloden found that by thrusting their bayonets to the Jacobite on their right, instead of front and center, they could break a Highland Charge.

T.

That, of course, had the effect of simply moving the targe out of the way, slipping the bayonet around it. My living history group actually give a demonstration on how it works:



Sorry the picture so crappy. My camera had a busted screen, and I just kinda shot pictures and hoped for the best. I have a new camera now, so I should be able to get some better pics this coming summer.

Back on topic, I'm impressed that a wooden targe of manageble weight could stop a large caliber lead ball. Do we know how targes were repaired? I sorta figured that once they were pierced or hit they were discarded or remade as the underlying integrity of the wood would have been compromised, but surely at least some examples of repaired targes exist, no? If I wanted to "battle damage" a targe, would the rips and cuts in the leather face be glued back down, patched somehow, or just tacked over with nails and tacks? Every replica targe I've ever seen has been a pristine work of art, be interesting to see one all bashed up, give it some character

I'll some pictures of our for you this summer. They can get ugly.