Greatest Ever Scot Revisited

[Jimmy]

We have had the thread on the Greatest Ever Scot, most members nominated someone, Scottish Television ran this contest last year and Robert Burns won it.
Last night I watched a drama called 'The Story of Penicillin' and a very interesting production it was.
The drama focussed on the research team at Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford led by Howard Florey, Fleming had abandoned his research on penicillin a few years earlier after being unable to produce any useful of amount of penicillin from mould but Florey's team took up the challenge and successfully produced enough penicillin to first treat mice and then move on to humans.
The rest is history.
Sir Alexander Fleming, as we know was the man who discovered penicillin, a discovery that would change the world and the course of history.
He shared the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1945 along with researchers Howard Florey and Ernst Chain.

Robert Burns was a great man, a great poet, penning some of the most beautiful verse ever written, he gave the world many memorable and outstanding poems but did he contribute as much to humanity as the man who discovered penicillin. I am a great Burns fan and love his work and can recite a few of his poems and have done so many times at Burns Suppers but can he stand against ALexander Fleming as the Greatest Ever Scot?

Sir Henry Harris said in 1998 ' Without Fleming, no Chain; Without Chain, no Florey, no Heatley; Without Heatley, no penicillin'

[Iain Robb]

Ah, you've hit on one of my pet peeves, so I for one am I going to have to disagree with the notion that a scientist -- any scientist -- can trump an artist such as Robert Burns.

You see, our schools today (at least in America) (and to some extent our society) have fallen victim to the "practical" approach. Our kids need to learn math and science, and if there's not enough room in the day or the budget to fit art and literature and music, so be it. And that's a tragic mistake.

The key to leading the way to the future is -- and always has been -- creativity. If all our children learn is how science purportedly works according to today's theories, they are doomed to live in the dismal "This is the way we've always done it" doldrums.

But if they are exposed to the arts, they can be people like Fleming and Florey, who brought creativity to science and created a breakthrough.

I'm glad Burns and others are able to inspire men and women like Fleming, but I'll vote for the inspirational over the inspired any day.

[Jimmy]

I take your point indeed was there any more inspirational individual than Robert Burns, his works alone are inspirational, just pick any one of his great poems and from whatever sector you chose then inspiration follows whether it is in love, romance, nature, human philosophy, or even religion, he is unsurpassed.
Why I select Fleming is because of why we are living today, the millions whose lives past and present are testimony to his great discovery

[Chirs]

This is an interesting conversation, if I may join. I am going to side with Iain on this one. I understand and absolutely agree with Jimmy's position but I would say that a life well-lived is of the greater importance. I am glad we have the opportunity to live at all, and Fleming has gone a long way to helping that, but the logical extension of that argument would venerate anyone who has promoted the live we are currently living. Is this really the best we could do?

Consider: there is no way to know how Europeans would have coped with infection had penicillin not been invented. Is it the best solution possible? There's no way to know that, and there's no way to know how things would have gone without it. However, we can say with certainty that it is not the only way to deal with infection because the rest of the world was getting on fine before the discovery.

In my opinion, the quality of a person's actions determines their life. Fleming's actions are laudable and have allowed people to stay alive; Burns works encourage people to truly live. The argument is close: "If you weren't alive you wouldn't be reading Burns." Both are valuable but, all else being equal, I would say that being alive is not enough, I want to be inspired. Fleming has certainly help me live but Burns has helped to shape the quality of the actions of people's lives.

[Spiff]

Artist? Scientist? to me the Greatest Scot ever was my grandfather Ralph Muir. That grouchy old man instilled in me love of Scottish traditions and the notion to always work hard and play hard.

[Jimmy]

This is an interesting conversation, if I may join. I am going to side with Iain on this one. I understand and absolutely agree with Jimmy's position but I would say that a life well-lived is of the greater importance. I am glad we have the opportunity to live at all, and Fleming has gone a long way to helping that, but the logical extension of that argument would venerate anyone who has promoted the live we are currently living. Is this really the best we could do?

Consider: there is no way to know how Europeans would have coped with infection had penicillin not been invented. Is it the best solution possible? There's no way to know that, and there's no way to know how things would have gone without it. However, we can say with certainty that it is not the only way to deal with infection because the rest of the world was getting on fine before the discovery.

In my opinion, the quality of a person's actions determines their life. Fleming's actions are laudable and have allowed people to stay alive; Burns works encourage people to truly live. The argument is close: "If you weren't alive you wouldn't be reading Burns." Both are valuable but, all else being equal, I would say that being alive is not enough, I want to be inspired. Fleming has certainly help me live but Burns has helped to shape the quality of the actions of people's lives.

'A life well lived is of greater importance' Certainly, the life of Burns has been well documented and recorded and has been studied by many scholars. Sure Burns led a life well lived,he was typical of many great Scots past and present who held genius in their own particular field whether in the Arts, Sciences, Sport or whatever but less recorded was the life of Alexander Fleming, less of a microscope has been placed in his personal life to find out more about him, all we really know about him was that he was a great man of science but equally was that a life well lived?

Without penicillin, how would society have evolved since the war, Fleming's discovery changed history, helped win and fight wars. Has any other anti-infection procedure made such inroads into disease.
How was TB and consumption dealt with before penicillin and its future pharmaceutical offsprings? the answer is is was'nt dealt with.

When I read Burns I am inspired and want to be at the level of humanity that he advocates, when I read about Fleming, I am humbled that man can take on natures worse diseases and defeat them, giving hope and inspiration for the conquering of other plagues and diseases

[robbiethepiper]

Let's get real. There are too many people in the world today. The planet simply cannot sustain the present population growth. We NEED a few bloody wars, and half-a-dozen serious plagues, so that those remaining can enjoy some sort of quality of life!

[Lallans]

Let's get real. There are too many people in the world today. The planet simply cannot sustain the present population growth. We NEED a few bloody wars, and half-a-dozen serious plagues, so that those remaining can enjoy some sort of quality of life!

Much to my surprise, I have a contrarian opinion . Aside from the USA, which is statistically holding its own without increasing, in the developed world our populations are actually falling, and with increasing speed. There will be no need for a war or other cataclism, any interested invaders will basically just able to stand around and take over. I refer everyone to Mark Steyn's book 'America Alone'.

As far as the art vs science thing of the earliest posts goes, to my mind it's like comparing Apples to Blackberries (dig the hip current reference). Between Burns and Fleming, Burns has been a force for, what, 400 years, and Fleming had a shorter term effect that has largely been p-ssed away to grow bigger hogs and chickens. However Fleming's saving of lives will continue as long as those survivors' genes are passed along; Burns will be a major figure as long as the English language keeps him comprhensible, and still a force after that.

Apples and blackberries. I like both but I favour the latter (RIM being Canadian).

[McClef]

You are never going to get agreement on this!

I have just joined a Masonic site where there is a big discussion on who was the greatest Scottish Freemason - Burns v others!

All I can say is whose birthday is the most celebrated?....

[Chas]

Let's get real. There are too many people in the world today. The planet simply cannot sustain the present population growth. We NEED a few bloody wars, and half-a-dozen serious plagues, so that those remaining can enjoy some sort of quality of life!

I am sure that we will all mourn you, when you are gone.

Regards

Chas