A sad documentary...PLEASE WATCH

[seanachie]

Am I wrong or is the info in Rocky's post why some have promoted the idea of having products branded "made in Scotland" and having strict criteria to earn that label? Had he not added this info I would have believed these were true Scottish sporrans made by a struggling sporran maker.

[MacMillans son]

Wow......I posted this as a testament to the hardship vendors are facing due to lower quality items being mass marketed. I'm ambivalent now since I also promote and propagate items made on this side of the pond. Not sure what to say at this point........

I guess "oops" may be in order

I must admit, I did find it a bit ironic that you and Rocky were commenting about low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods, while both of you are making a living selling low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods (PV kilts). While I, as a consumer, have benefited by both of your's low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods.

A free market economy is a funny thing isn't it ?

[RockyR]

I must admit, I did find it a bit ironic that you and Rocky were commenting about low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods, while both of you are making a living selling low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods (PV kilts). While I, as a consumer, have benefited by both of your's low cost alternatives to Scottish made goods.

A free market economy is a funny thing isn't it ?

I don't find it Ironic b/c we're not promoting our products (if I may speak for Josh for a moment) as "made in Scotland", "Designed in Scotland" or anything like that. We're proud to make our kilts here in America. Heck, my company NAME is "USA Kilts". That's how up front we are about it.

What I find dispicible is those who try to pull the wool over the consumer's eyes and represent their products as something they're not. Companies that result to "emotional blackmale" of their customers... complaining about how hard it is, yet at the same time are lying about facts to that customer to get their business. One thing we try to do as a company is VERY accurately describe our kilts and their intended functions. If someone asks me "Can I wear a Casual kilt to my wedding", I will always say, "You shouldn't... it's meant for CASUAL events like pub nights, highland games, etc". I want to make sure people understand exactly what they're getting and why the price is what it is. We also have links on our site to help the customer understand exactly what it is they're buying and make sure they're making the right decision for themselves:

http://www.usakilts.com/store/cart.php?m=content&page=6
http://www.usakilts.com/store/cart.p...ontent&page=13


Every company has to draw a line in the sand on what kind of products (origins and company ethics) they want to carry and what kind of public 'representations' they want to make. The main difference is 'how far down the beach' they are when they draw that line. Here's our company statement (shown on our website) on where we draw our line on product origins.

http://www.usakilts.com/store/cart.php?m=content&page=4

I don't see any contradiction at all. We do what we say and say what we do.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

For the record, I spoke with his son (on the video) at the Glasgow trade show in January. For their dress sporrans, they use cantles from 2 companies. 1 is ClanArt (a UK company based in Somerset, England). The second is a Pakistani company who stamps out cheap (price and quality) cantles for them. This isn't something I'm assuming or guessing at... it was a direct question I asked him and the direct answer he gave me.

One of their larger customers (also discussed in the conversation) is the Gold Brothers.

I'll stick with my 100% Scottish (and 25% Scottish / 75% Canadian) sporrans.... cantles and all.

Very interesting. I note that the documentary was made two years ago. I wonder if they have started to do this recently in order to avoid closing the doors.

[RockyR]

Am I wrong or is the info in Rocky's post why some have promoted the idea of having products branded "made in Scotland" and having strict criteria to earn that label? Had he not added this info I would have believed these were true Scottish sporrans made by a struggling sporran maker.

The problem is the 'strictness' of this theorhetical law. In this global economy PARTS of certain products are sourced from elsewhere. The raw wool used to make tartan is mostly sourced from Australia, Asia, etc. The skins and leather used for sporrans come from Italy, France, etc. There are VERY FEW products that can say they're 100% Scottish. For something to be 'made in Scotland', it only has to be assembled there. Then the question becomes, how much 'assembly' needs to be done in Scotland to say it was assembled there... just put the cantle on the top of the sporran body? Just sew the buckles on the kilts?

What does "Made in Scotland" mean? It's a much bigger question than it appears on the surface.

[RockyR]

Very interesting. I note that the documentary was made two years ago. I wonder if they have started to do this recently in order to avoid closing the doors.

Good question Matt. I have an older catalog of theirs (from when I visited the Glasgow show) in 2004. I don't see much (any?) difference in the cantles, but that doesn't mean anything necessarily. They could have sent their own UK cantle designs to Pakistan to copy and mass produce.

Also, as a point of clarification, to my knowledge, that is the only part of their sporran produced in Pakistan. The bodies are made in their UK shop. I'm not trying to badmouth them as a company, just suss out the truth.

[theborderer]

A free market economy is a funny thing isn't it ?

I must also admit that I go the cheap way, but this is not out of preferance but necessity. I must however admit that I am pleased with the quality of my Gold Brothers Kilt, as much as the made to measure suit I had made in 24 hours whilst serving overseas.

[Chas]

As unfortunate as this situation is, it is truly not the whole story. The most we are seeing is a small snapshot through a keyhole. There is a far larger picture that we either are not allowed to see, don't see, don't want to see or could not care about.

Most of us own a sporran or have seen a sporran, from the 70's or 80's with "MADE IN SCOTLAND" stamped on the back in gold lettering. I own two, one black and the other brown. Originally purchased from retailers who's names we would readily recognise. Some of whom are still in business today. Hold this thought, I will come back to it.

Time for a bit of recent European history. The EU (what was the EEC) wanted to promote itself on the world stage. A difficult task, so it was decided that individual member states should promote themselves and thus shine a bit of reflected glory back at the EU. Within a very short time everything made in the EU had "Made in XXX" stamped all over it.

But, but, but. Under EU law and regulation member states were allowed to put "Made in XXX" on goods if they contributed to the manufacture of the completed item in some way. So we had the case of German sausage and Spanish sausage and Portuguese tomatoes and Belgian puree and English, Austrian and French cheese were added to German and French wheat to become - Italian pizza! "Made in Italia - just like momma makes."

At the same time, if you wanted a banana, you ate a French banana. A French Banana! Just where, in France, were all these millions of bananas grown? Well they weren't. They were grown in one of the former French colonies and shipped to France with very favourable import tariffs. The big bunches were split down, re-boxed with labels stating "Grown in France" and sold in Europe as French bananas. Make no mistake - this was all legal and officially encouraged.

Back to the sporrans. We originally had colonies which became part of the Commonwealth and good trading partners. Sporrans were made in the Indian sub-continent and shipped to Scotland. Once there the little chain hanger (strip of folded leather with the two D rings) was installed and the words "Made in Scotland" were stamped on the back. Some went further and stated that they were made in "the highlands" or "on the Golden Mile" or "in Scotland's Capital". Then they were re-shipped round the world as Scottish sporrans.

All legal. No one questioned it, why should they, it was the law. Anybody could do it and they did. Ford of Germany used to proudly affix stickers saying "Made in Germany" to every car that rolled off the assembly line. Except that 95% of the components (including engine, gearbox, transmission, brakes, windows and seats) were made in England. Remember this was the same time when we didn't know what went into the food we ate or fed to our children.

So we come down to it. Legally we are on solid ground with "Made in Scotland", but ethically or morally - not quicksand, but very close. But what about today and the future. Well, now if goods are going to have a designation it says "Made in EU". It does not have to be on the item, it can be somewhere, out of the way, on the packaging. I have often asked "Is the box made in the EU or the contents?" And then we often see a little label "Produce of more than one country". Which again can be hidden on the box. Which countries? Who knows.

Rabbit skin dress sporrans - we don't eat a lot of rabbit in this country, so where do the skins come from? They do eat a lot of rabbit in Belgium, what do they do with the skins? I am not saying that these two things are related to each other, but I would be very surprised if the suppliers in both countries didn't talk to each other. At what point does a Belgian rabbit become a Scottish sporran?

When times are good, we have the luxury of being able to pick and choose, but in the current climate, we buy what we can afford. And we don't look too deeply.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillans son]

I don't find it Ironic b/c we're not promoting our products (if I may speak for Josh for a moment) as "made in Scotland", "Designed in Scotland" or anything like that. We're proud to make our kilts here in America. Heck, my company NAME is "USA Kilts". That's how up front we are about it.

What I find dispicible is those who try to pull the wool over the consumer's eyes and represent their products as something they're not. Companies that result to "emotional blackmale" of their customers... complaining about how hard it is, yet at the same time are lying about facts to that customer to get their business. One thing we try to do as a company is VERY accurately describe our kilts and their intended functions. If someone asks me "Can I wear a Casual kilt to my wedding", I will always say, "You shouldn't... it's meant for CASUAL events like pub nights, highland games, etc". I want to make sure people understand exactly what they're getting and why the price is what it is. We also have links on our site to help the customer understand exactly what it is they're buying and make sure they're making the right decision for themselves:

I agree completely Rocky. I did not mean to imply that you did/do anything unethical, and I fully understood the point of your original post. I was just thinking that there are likely some people in Scotland, for instance, who are bemoaning the horrible effect that foreign made PV kilts are having on the Scottish kilt making industry, without regards to the quality of those kilts, or the accuracy of the company's claim to their country of origin.

What I found somewhat ironic, but not the least bit unethical, is that you hold to selling Scottish or Scottish Canadian products, which supports what is purported to be, a declining industry in those countries, while at the same time selling a product that many there would consider is contributing to the decline of another industry.

The painful truth, especially for industries on the decline, is that consumers vote with their wallets. We the consumer decide what is valuable, not the industries. Certainly, in the case of monopolies, state sponsored and otherwise, there are exceptions to that, but for many people it comes down to what they can afford at the time that they want to get their needs met. And just as certainly, that is a function of many peoples recent inability to delay gratification, but also, them not experiencing an increase in value commensurate with the increase in price.

As sad as it may be for those affected industries, some people don't feel they need to spend $300 on a hand made Scottish sporran that lasts ten generations, when they can spend $30 on an imported one that lasts the rest of their lifetime. As our friends in the former textile regions of the southern U.S. can attest, Scotland is not the only country affected by that reality.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Further to Chas' very good comments, I think it would be helpful for us to ask "what is the 'thing' being made?"

I expect a sporran maker to make sporrans. I don't necessarily expect a sporran maker to also be a metal caster, or a leather tanner. So I am perfectly happy with the notion that my sporran maker is acquiring all the metal bits and the leather they use from some other source.

Now, just as with anything else, there will be degrees of quality and other considerations. Is the metal hand cast sterling or pewter made in Sheffield, or is it stamped tin made in Pakistan? And, more importantly, do I trust my sporran maker to be discerning, and have enough pride in their product, to source out the best quality materials at the best price, so that they can have a good end product to bring to market?

So let's say the metal bits were cast in England and the leather was imported from Spain. Metal bits and leather hides are not sporrans. So long as the sporran itself was made in Scotland, I'd be perfectly content to call it made in Scotland. It's the practice of making the complete sporran elsewhere and slipping the D rings onto the back, and calling that "made in Scotland" that I think is dishonest.

To give another comparison, as someone who keeps a small backyard flock of hens, I frequently warn people away from the so-called "Free Range" eggs sold in the supermarkets -- because by law to be called "Free Range" the hens only have to have "access" to the outside. What this effectively means most of the time is that the chickens are kept in a large industrial hen house like most any other agri-business, only with a small hole in the wall for "access" which 99% of the hens never pass through.

As a kiltmaker, the tartan I use is imported from Scotland, where it was woven (and as Rocky has pointed out, the wool itself may have come from Australia). My buckles and straps come from Canada. The silk cloth I use for lining is woven in China. Not sure where my sewing thread is manufactured. But the kilt itself is made in the USA and I label it as such.

I am a kiltmaker -- I'm not a weaver, I don't know how to cast the metal buckles, nor do I tan my own hides to make the leather straps. I make kilts. I don't think anyone expects a kiltmaker to do all of those things.

Likewise, I don't think anyone expects a sporran maker to also be a metal caster, leather tanner, etc. I think most of us assume those elements are coming from elsewhere, even when we see the "made in Scotland" stamp. But I also think it is reasonable that we (the public) should expect the actual product to be made in Scotland, and not some last-minute bobble attached to an essentially already finished product.