A question on ethics...

[RockyR]

If I may also add a further comment about the Campbell tartan... it seems that a lot of what I read about this issue blames the popularity of the spurrious Campbell of Argyle tartan on "tartan merchants."

Speaking as someone who often wears the hat of a tartan merchant, let me tell you that the consumer more often than not (in my experience) holds the blame...

And more often than not, the customer insists (sometimes rather strongly) that they are a Campbell of Argyle and that this is their tartan, regardless of anything else I tell them. That's the tartan that their daddy wore, and their granddaddy wore, and that's what they will continue to wear, by golly. I don't know if they simply choose to disregard the Duke's wishes on this, or if they think I am attempting to pull a fast one on them, or what...

Some people are just stubborn and what they THINK is right (no matter whether they have any FACTS to back it up) is right in their mind. If you disagree, you're wrong. As a "tartan vendor", I've found it better to let this "type of person" think what they like and leave happy. It's not worth my time and energy to "be right" when I know I'm just going to tick someone off who is going to end up leaveing thinking THEY were right ANYWAY.

And in the end, it's not my job to be the tartan police. It's my job to supply the customer with the tartan he or she wants.

Something that people seem to forget is the "Buyer Beware" principle. The problem with so many law suits and court cases today is the fact that people don't want to take responsibility for THEIR OWN stupidity at times. If I walk into a light post, I'm not going to sue the city for putting it there. If I buy something that I later figure out I don't really like, I'm not going to try to return a USED product... It's my FAULT for not knowing what I want to start with!

[kiltedjaz]

If I may also add a further comment about the Campbell tartan... it seems that a lot of what I read about this issue blames the popularity of the spurious Campbell of Argyle tartan on "tartan merchants."

Speaking as someone who often wears the hat of a tartan merchant, let me tell you that the consumer more often than not (in my experience) holds the blame.



Very often I'll be consulting with someone over which tartan to wear (be it a kilt, sash, or just a tie) and I will make it as clear as I can to them that the Duke of Argyle, the chief of the Clan Campbell, desires his clansmen to wear the plain Campbell tartan (aka Black Watch) and does not in fact recognize the so-called Campbell of Argyll........



M

So very true Matt.....I believe that previous Dukes have said the same thing.

However, I am somewhat 'confused' about the American perceived difference between 'Black Watch' and the plain (or Ancient) 'Campbell' tartans.

Very often descriptions or illustrations of these two tartans seem to be misnamed and or reversed.

i.e. the Ancient Campbell being referred to as Ancient Black Watch or just Black Watch and vice versa.

The two tartans have separate identities and histories and are inextricably linked. The history being well documented. Ancient Campbell is not Black Watch.

The setts are the same but in the case of Black Watch, the colours are much darker

[auld argonian]

Not to muddy the Campbell discussion but where does Campbell of Cawdor come into the equation? That's the choice for my next kilt and I'm genuinely curious. I see that USA Kilts has that Campbell (Cawdor) illustrated as one of the choices on their list for casuals and semi-trads.

Best

AA

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I've started a new thread on Campbell tartans here:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=17343

[Mike1]

Not to muddy the Campbell discussion but where does Campbell of Cawdor come into the equation?

It simply refers to the geographic placement of this family. Campbell of Argyll, Campbell of Breadalbane and Campbell of Cawdor. The Cawdor area is north of Dundee.

It would be similar to saying Jones of Illinois and Jones of Arkansas.

[Cawdorian]

AA

Go to www.electricscotland.com, there are histories of the clans under the clan section and histories of the families under the "Family History" section. You will find a good history of "Campbell of Cawdor" and the other houses of Clan Campbell on this web site.

The Campbell tartan shown on the USA Kilt website is indeed the Campbell of Cawdor tartan. This tartan is also known as the District of Argyll, McCorkledale (spelling) and is also the tartan of the 93rd Argyll and Sutherland Highland Regiment.

It is a beautiful tartan.

Note to moderator - move to Campbell Tartan thread if you need to.

[macwilkin]

It simply refers to the geographic placement of this family. Campbell of Argyll, Campbell of Breadalbane and Campbell of Cawdor. The Cawdor area is north of Dundee.

It would be similar to saying Jones of Illinois and Jones of Arkansas.

Campbell of Cawdor is also a district tartan, the Argyll (Argyle) District tartan:

http://www.district-tartans.com/argyll.htm

It is also a military tartan, being worn by the Argyll Fencibles, a militia unit, in the 1790's, and then later on by the 91st & 93rd Highlanders:

http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/cbell-c.htm

The 91st (Argyllshire) Highlanders were raised in 1794 by the Duke of Argyll and immediately adopted the Black Watch tartan. Although it is sometimes described as a Campbell tartan, it was by this period at least, just another example of the use of the universal military pattern.

In 1809, the 91st ceased to be a kilted regiment and it was not until 1864 that a War Office Order re-established them as a Highland Corps. At this time it was stated that they would wear trews of "Campbell" tartan, but in fact they added a red and a light blue line to the universal military tartan. The Argyll Rifle Volunteers also wore the extra red and blue lines, and although when they became 5th Volunteer Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders they were to assume the dress of the regular battalions, they continued to wear their old tartan for some time, which had become known as Campbell of Cawdor. The 42nd themselves appear to have worn a red stripe during part of the 18th century to distinguish the Grenadier Company and there has been some discussion about its use by the Battalion Companies in undress.

-- http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/dispatch.htm

So, it is a clan, a district and a regimental tartan. Confusing, isn't it? :mrgreen:

[Schultz]

It simply refers to the geographic placement of this family. Campbell of Argyll, Campbell of Breadalbane and Campbell of Cawdor. The Cawdor area is north of Dundee.

It would be similar to saying Jones of Illinois and Jones of Arkansas.

Is anyone else hearing a rather snobbish voice (ala Thurston Howell III) saying, "Oh, you're a Campbell? As in the Cawwwww-doorrrr Campbells?"

[flairball]

I recently read the secton in Barb's book about tartans. Seems the tartan system we all know of today is fairly recent. Also it seems that many clans had their tartans designed for them by the weaver, rather than submit an example of what they wanted.

Also, does Ireland have a kilt wearing tradition? I know many Scots imigrated to Ireland over the years, and wore kilts, as did their kin I'm sure, but what about an Irish kilt wearing tradition? Did the Irish wear them, or did the decendents of Scots living in Ireland wear them? ( I know, splitting hair ) Seems to me that county/district tartans are rather new, and would think that there would be more Irish surnamed tartans.

I'm new to this whole tartan/kilt thing, so if I've asked a stupid question please forgive me, but this is an area I've found little information on.

[macwilkin]

I recently read the secton in Barb's book about tartans. Seems the tartan system we all know of today is fairly recent. Also it seems that many clans had their tartans designed for them by the weaver, rather than submit an example of what they wanted.

Yes, the concept of a "clan tartan" is fairly recent, and yes, the weaving firms themselves assigned many tartans to clans. There are a number of good articles about this on Matt's web site, www.albanach.org.

Also, does Ireland have a kilt wearing tradition? I know many Scots imigrated to Ireland over the years, and wore kilts, as did their kin I'm sure, but what about an Irish kilt wearing tradition? Did the Irish wear them, or did the decendents of Scots living in Ireland wear them? ( I know, splitting hair ) Seems to me that county/district tartans are rather new, and would think that there would be more Irish surnamed tartans.

Ireland's kilt tradition originates, for the most part, as part of the 19th Irish Nationalist movement, that attempted to introduce "Irish" traditions to counter the influences of the English -- for example, a number of Irish nationalists and revolutionaries adopted the kilt, usually in a solid colour, as an example of an "Irish" garment.

On the other hand, the Irish regiments of the British Army adopted much of Highland military kit for their pipe bands and introduced the saffron kilt, and then later on, adopted by the Irish Republic's Armed Forces and Police & Fire Departments in North America, which were at one time heavily made up of Irish immigrants. (The Irish Regiment of Canada is the only kilted Irish regiment; in all other Irish regiments, past and present, only pipers and drummers were kilted.)

The Irish county tartans are new, designed in 1996 by the Scottish firm, the House of Edgar, although the concept of the district tartan is, at least in Scotland, older than the clan tartan.

And, the majority of Scots who immigrated to Ireland would NOT have worn the kilt -- these were primarily Lowlanders, who were brought to Ulster as part of the plantation system, and would not have worn the garb of the "wild highlander", they they viewed as "savages", much as they did the "wild Irish". It was only later on that Lowlanders adopted Highland attire as Scottish "national" dress, and even more recent that the Ulster-Scots in Northern Ireland have begun to wear Scottish attire and display the distinct links between Ulster and Scotland.

I'm new to this whole tartan/kilt thing, so if I've asked a stupid question please forgive me, but this is an area I've found little information on.

No question is stupid; these were good question, and there is MUCH mis-information out there, especially on the web, regarding these subjects.

Cheers,

Todd