Interesting email from an Irish fellow about Irish kilts.

[slohairt]

Ah, if only the unnamed fool knew what a debate his email has sparked!

The Irish did indeed have clans, Greg. Not exactly like the Scottish Highlanders, but remarkably similar. They were simply destroyed at an earlier point in history. (The 17th Century.)

Some Irish surnames, especially those with the 'Mac' prefix, were taken directly from the father. The prefix 'Ó' (earlier Ua) does mean 'grandson' technically, but 'ancestor' is a better translation. These names were often taken from the clan's semi-historical progenitor.

Surnames in Ireland became fixed at a much earlier date than in Scotland. In fact, Scottish Gaelic surnames as we know them today were hardly used at all. For example, Alasdair Mac Raonuill Mac Mhaighstir Mac Ruairidh, a member of Clann Mhic Dhùghaill, would be known by this lengthy patronymic by his family and within Gaelic-speaking circles. When he travelled to the Lowlands or abroad to find work, he became known as Alexander McDougall. His descendants from then on would be McDougalls.

The Irish Kennedys and the Scottish Kennedys are completely unrelated. The Irish Kennedy clan (Ó Cinnéide) were members of the Dál gCais, and are reputed to be descended from Brian Boru's brother. The Scottish Kennedys (Ceannaideach or Mac Uaraig) originated in Ayrshire. There is territorial overlap due to migration, but this does not denote kinship.

[O'Callaghan]

How about the Irish Gunns and the Scots Gunns? That's a hard name to change accidentally or by the passage of time. Or the Irish McGraths and the Scottish MacRaes? Both of the latter claim Maccraith as progenitor - is it a different Maccraith?

[Mr. Kilt]

Wow, odd that this thread has popped back up and has generated so much new interest.
On the plus side...I haven't heard back from the fellow in question.

[Captain Karrot]

Wow, odd that this thread has popped back up and has generated so much new interest.
On the plus side...I haven't heard back from the fellow in question.

I agree...I can also say that it is a very enlightening post, and in particular I want to thank slohairt for his contributions - very knowledgable.

[CameronTaylor]

Pay no heed to hateful people.


CT - my London Irish friends Neck are "Plastic and Proud" and I have the t-shirt that says so.

[English Bloke]

I agree, a very informative debate. I too have come across a bit of the "It's mine, you can't have it" - Dog in the manger attitude from the those who regard themselves as 'true born' but I don't think this is common. In my experience most people either couldn't care less or are chuffed with the global spread of celtic culture, Scottish or Irish.

I think the original emailer would benefit from reading this thread. It would help him to address his intollerance and perhaps realise there are more important things to worry about. I'm wearing the kilt now because it's comfortable and I think just a little bit cool but if an individuals driving force for wearing one is cultural or comfort, does it really matter? I also wear jeans but I can't ride a horse. I wonder if Irish Bar-bloke wears jeans to work in Ohio and realises the irony of that situation.

Incidentally, I just returned from a week in Germany and Belgium where I wore the kilt almost every day. Apart from one Turkish fella working in a schnell-imbiss who nearly fell over when giving me the best double take I've ever seen in my life, no-one else seemed bothered. All comments were very positive and a couple of people I was with even asked were they could get one. I'm sure their requests weren't driven by a burning desire to get in touch with their Highland or Irish roots either but a German? in a kilt? I don't have a problem with it myself...

[triolamj]

On Brian Boru Jackets: They're too expensive and Houston is too warm for a long-sleeve Barathea jacket with a vest underneath it. The Kilkenny would be nice if it were a darker green. Still, I would rather have a black denim twill Argyll with round harp buttons in silver pewter that goes with all 3 of my kilts and not just my Irish one. My second choice would be a black worsted wool Spencer tuxedo and matching vest by Raffinati with harp buttons or Celtic buttons replacing the velvet ones. I put one together for my son when he was 8 or 9 and he really looked sharp at the next St Pat's Day parade.

[slohairt]

How about the Irish Gunns and the Scots Gunns? That's a hard name to change accidentally or by the passage of time. Or the Irish McGraths and the Scottish MacRaes? Both of the latter claim Maccraith as progenitor - is it a different Maccraith?

I would say that Gunn hasn't changed at all, accidentally or otherwise. According to all reputable sources, Gunn is always a Highland surname, ultimately of Norse origin. The Irish Gunns would simply be descendants of Highlanders.

McGrath and MacRae (or Magrath, McGraw, etc.,) are all Anglicisations of the Gaelic Mac Raith (earlier Irish Mag Raith) meaning 'son of Rath'. For some reason, this is often rendered as Mac Craith in Modern Irish. If Gaelic mythology is any clue, it would appear that Rath was a very common personal name in ancient times. Several unrelated clans in both Scotland and Ireland could have risen and fallen over the centuries, with their descendants today lumped into one or two groups.

[CameronTaylor]

In the numerous times I've been to Ireland I've never had the occasion to meet anybody (Northern or Southern) that has the attitude of the guy in the original post.
I equate his "problem" the same as I do with other loud-mouth types.
Big-talking ex-New Yorkers, Texans, Ohioans, etc ... don't represent the place they come from (and those back there are largely happy said mouths left) and should be ignored at all cost.


CT - play nice, that's all

[O'Callaghan]

I would say that Gunn hasn't changed at all, accidentally or otherwise. According to all reputable sources, Gunn is always a Highland surname, ultimately of Norse origin. The Irish Gunns would simply be descendants of Highlanders.

McGrath and MacRae (or Magrath, McGraw, etc.,) are all Anglicisations of the Gaelic Mac Raith (earlier Irish Mag Raith) meaning 'son of Rath'. For some reason, this is often rendered as Mac Craith in Modern Irish. If Gaelic mythology is any clue, it would appear that Rath was a very common personal name in ancient times. Several unrelated clans in both Scotland and Ireland could have risen and fallen over the centuries, with their descendants today lumped into one or two groups.

The Maccraith that founded the Irish MacGraths was not the son of a Rath or Raith or anything like that according the old lineages, FWIW.

"In Kerry, the following have been the chief Anglo-Norman and English families:--Fitzmaurice, earls of Kerry, descended from Raymond le Gros, a celebrated warrior who came over with Strongbow. Raymond having formed an alliance with Dermot MacCarthy, King of Desmond, got large grants of land in Kerry, in the territory called Lixnaw. The other principal families were those of Herbert, Brown, Stack, Blennerhasset, Crosbie, Denny, Gunn, Godfrey, Morris, Rice, Spring, etc."

http://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/Desmond.php