What's Modern Kilt Wear> ...or...what's this subforum really about?

[OC Richard]

Historical Kilt Wear
Traditional Kilt Wear
Modern Kilt Wear

This section was originally intended as a photo showcase of, and inspiration for, how to wear the kilt in relation to time periods.

The information in each section would be appropriate to the time period.

It was originally thought that the Modern Kilt Wear section would have the most posts as the wearing of the kilt today is still undergoing much change and adaptation.

The way the kilt was worn in the other time periods are already set simply because those time periods are in the past.

Interesting. I take "modern" and "traditional" to both refer to kiltwearing today, but to different forms of current kiltwearing, for this reason:

"Traditional", at least as the term usually means, does NOT refer to a time period in the past. (Of course people are always free to create their own personal meanings for words, but this hinders mutal understanding.)

"Traditional" means modern current still-living things which have an unbroken continuity into the past. (Websters: "tradition the handing down orally of beliefs, customs, etc from generation to generation" )

If the continuity is broken, and we today reach back into the past and revive or recreate something, it is not "traditional" but a revival or recreation of a historical thing.

cf the difference between "traditional music" and "historical music". Traditional music, of whatever tradition, is a living breathing thing which undergoes continuous evolution today.

There are always two opposing forces at work in any tradition: innovation and conservation.

So, modern kiltwear which is today undergoing these forces of innovation and conservation is indeed "traditional" as modern kiltwear has an unbroken lineage back to kiltwearing of the earliest times.

If you put date brackets around something, say, 1900-1930, or indeed 1990-2000, you are by definition not talking about a "traditional" thing but a "historical" thing.

It would be more accurate and clear to have categories "traditional kiltwearing" and "nontraditional kiltwearing". Both are "modern".

[CMcG]

Interesting. I take "modern" and "traditional" to both refer to kiltwearing today, but to different forms of current kiltwearing, for this reason:

...

It would be more accurate and clear to have categories "traditional kiltwearing" and "nontraditional kiltwearing". Both are "modern".

I agree!

[MacLowlife]

You may call me crezzy, but somehow I am much more interested in comments on PaulHenry's pink kilt


( is that Panne' Velvet?, Satin? Dupioni?) than I am on who is and isn't entitled to complain about who is and isn't being nice.

And I have looked through most of a dozen pages and see no comments on what is an exceptional garment in any forum.

I wear trousers mostly, though I do try to keep my kilt wearing modern, meaning completely separate from costume wearing. I would wear pink pants* in a flat minute. In fact, I may have worn pink pants ( and pants with little things embroidered on them ) since I last donned a pair of tartan trousers. There is a world view that embraces traditional patterned trousers in unusual ( outrageous?) fabrics. I expect it contributed to early expansion of kilt fabric choices.

In the trouser world, a pair of them with onseam pockets, forward pleats, conventional leg proportions, a regular waistband, and ironic hula girls embroidered all over, is still considered pretty stodgy by those who wear their pants tight or midway up the calf or midway down the backside, or covered with zippers or a la MC Hammer ( Pyjama style).

I don't mean to muddy the waters, much less do I want to be seen as coming onto somebody else's turf and being impolite, but I think you can make the kilt "modern" or Non-traditional in two big ways. One is to change the fabric ( black leather, denim, canvas, chalkstripe, hickory stripe) and the other is to change the pattern (pockets, stud closures, etc) Of course, people can and do mix these two changes together.

But hey, a pink kilt!

Now THAT is unmistakably modern. And undeniably very cool.

Even if it is made in an apparently traditional way.

*Being an American, I do not distinguish between pants and trousers. I am not referring to underwear when I say pants

[seanachie]

I agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Richard
Interesting. I take "modern" and "traditional" to both refer to kiltwearing today, but to different forms of current kiltwearing, for this reason:

...

It would be more accurate and clear to have categories "traditional kiltwearing" and "nontraditional kiltwearing". Both are "modern".

I agree!


I personally would not want to see things go there....it is disconcerting to think what might appear under a category of Non Traditional perhaps some see it only as an issue of semantics but I would not like that wording. It makes perfect sense to me, that wearing a traditional kilt with non traditional accessories ie loafers or sandals or perhaps a polo or rugby shirt, jean jacket etc. appears under Modern Kilt wear....that I understand.

[Tobus]

Clearly, we need to argue about this some more...

I personally would not want to see things go there....it is disconcerting to think what might appear under a category of Non Traditional perhaps some see it only as an issue of semantics but I would not like that wording. It makes perfect sense to me, that wearing a traditional kilt with non traditional accessories ie loafers or sandals or perhaps a polo or rugby shirt, jean jacket etc. appears under Modern Kilt wear....that I understand.

Actually, I think it would be great to have two major categories. Traditional and nontraditional. If you post in the traditional section, you know that all the answers are going to be based on "the rules", historical precedents, military regulations, what bagpipers do (which seems to get way too much coverage here, considering very few members are pipers), and other established norms of Scottish kilt-wearing. If you post in the nontraditional section, there will be none of that and you don't have to worry about being criticized by the traditionalists.

It could be clearly written into the forum headers so everyone understands. One forum is fair game for talking about what's "correct" or "proper". The other one is for ignoring any and all sartorial rules and simply discussing what looks good, what's interesting and new, and what's comfortable.

Of course, it would be perfectly reasonable in the traditional section to split it up into "historical" and "modern", but they are still against the backdrop of Scottish tradition, with all the imaginary rules that apply there. The nontraditional could be split up into "modern variations from Scottish tradition" and "totally non-Scottish kilt variations".

I think for a lot of people, this distinction is important. I'd say the majority of users here wear somewhat traditional kilts, but in a modern way. Their threads could get lost amongst the talk of Utilikilts and other contemporary designs (or vice-versa). It would make sense to have distinct forums: one for modern interpretations of traditional styles, and another for totally contemporary kilt designs, all under the sub-heading of nontraditional.

It matters not to me, though... I think the only important issue here is that folks have a place to talk about their regular kilt-wearing without being constantly told that it's wrong by someone. If there's only one forum on this board that's safe (the Modern Kilt forum), then so be it. But it seems strange to only have one forum for that when the majority of kilt-wearers here are wearing modern kilted attire per Steve's definition.

[Paul Henry]

You may call me crezzy, but somehow I am much more interested in comments on PaulHenry's pink kilt


( is that Panne' Velvet?, Satin? Dupioni?) than I am on who is and isn't entitled to complain about who is and isn't being nice.

And I have looked through most of a dozen pages and see no comments on what is an exceptional garment in any forum.

I wear trousers mostly, though I do try to keep my kilt wearing modern, meaning completely separate from costume wearing. I would wear pink pants* in a flat minute. In fact, I may have worn pink pants ( and pants with little things embroidered on them ) since I last donned a pair of tartan trousers. There is a world view that embraces traditional patterned trousers in unusual ( outrageous?) fabrics. I expect it contributed to early expansion of kilt fabric choices.

In the trouser world, a pair of them with onseam pockets, forward pleats, conventional leg proportions, a regular waistband, and ironic hula girls embroidered all over, is still considered pretty stodgy by those who wear their pants tight or midway up the calf or midway down the backside, or covered with zippers or a la MC Hammer ( Pyjama style).

I don't mean to muddy the waters, much less do I want to be seen as coming onto somebody else's turf and being impolite, but I think you can make the kilt "modern" or Non-traditional in two big ways. One is to change the fabric ( black leather, denim, canvas, chalkstripe, hickory stripe) and the other is to change the pattern (pockets, stud closures, etc) Of course, people can and do mix these two changes together.

But hey, a pink kilt!

Now THAT is unmistakably modern. And undeniably very cool.

Even if it is made in an apparently traditional way.

*Being an American, I do not distinguish between pants and trousers. I am not referring to underwear when I say pants

Thank you, MacLowlife for your very kind words! There is more about that particular kilt on theis post Pink kilt .
I've still got it and still wear it for special occasions,almost everyone seems to enjoy it,at least I like to think that when I see them smiling!

[Bugbear]

Thank you, MacLowlife for your very kind words! There is more about that particular kilt on theis post Pink kilt .
I've still got it and still wear it for special occasions,almost everyone seems to enjoy it,at least I like to think that when I see them smiling!

Ya, that is a cool kilt, Paul.

[davidlpope]

[SIZE="6"]I would wear pink pants* in a flat minute. In fact, I may have worn pink pants ( and pants with little things embroidered on them ) since I last donned a pair of tartan trousers. There is a world view that embraces traditional patterned trousers in unusual ( outrageous?) fabrics. I expect it contributed to early expansion of kilt fabric choices.

In the trouser world, a pair of them with onseam pockets, forward pleats, conventional leg proportions, a regular waistband, and ironic hula girls embroidered all over, is still considered pretty stodgy by those who wear their pants tight or midway up the calf or midway down the backside, or covered with zippers or a la MC Hammer ( Pyjama style).

Strong work MacLowlife. Now you've got me wondering just what the Vin Diagram overlap is between Southern Preps and Kilt-Wearers....

[davidlpope]

Please notice that the major heading of this section of the forum is "How to Wear The Kilt"
Under that major heading are the four sub-headings:
Historical Kilt Wear
Traditional Kilt Wear
Modern Kilt Wear
How to Accessorize Your Kilt

This section was originally intended as a photo showcase of, and inspiration for, how to wear the kilt in relation to time periods.

I agree with Steve and think that the current forums make sense. IMHO individuals should wear their kilts, and classify their kilt-wearing (if they feel the need to), according to their own conscience.

For example, many of the photos in this very thread appear to me to be very traditional, but if one is wearing a particular ensemble with the understanding that "this is modern kilt wear", then I don't see why there would ever be a reason to debate this point.

Further, if the OP's initial concern was that there was a shortage of discussion in this forum concerning modern kilt-wearing, I don't see how subdividing that broader category into smaller sub-forums will help alleviate the perceived problem.

Cordially,

David

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Somewhat sad to check back in to XMTS and find dissension and a long time member getting so frustrated that he decided to leave. I hope that we can all overcome our own styles, taste, and prejudices and allow others their own styles, tastes, and prejudices.

And since Steve has aptly pointed out that pictures help to tell the story, here is a pic of me at Earth Day a few years ago, and I don't think anybody will deny that it is definitely "modern" kilt wear no matter how you define modern.