Interesting email from an Irish fellow about Irish kilts.

[bowser]

I believe there are quite a few differences between Irish and Scottish culture, as well as many similarities. There's also only ten miles of sea between England and France, but no-one would say there's no difference in culture there, and vive la difference.

Quite a few similarities as well if you consider Brittany and Cornwall, if you can speak Breton you would understand Cornish (not that many still speak it).

Just remember there are more celtic nations than Scotland/Wales and Ireland.

for those interested

Alba (Scotland)
Cymru (Wales)
Kernow (Cornwall)
Mannin (Isle of Man)
Galicia (Spain)
Briezh (Brittany)
Eire (Ireland)

[sarge]

This has been an informative thread to read, and I bring it back as it is somewhat seasonal

[Mr. Kilt]

Thanks, sarge!
A slight update that might add to this thread...
I was conversing with a fellow "Gingles" who came from the same part of N. Ireland as my grandfather. He said that the family history was mainly Ulster-Scot and Dutch. Hopefully he'll be able to send me more information about them.

[The Thing]

I've just been reading through this thread, it makes me angry that Irish people from the Isle of Ireland have no idea of their own hertiage. The Leine and Brat most likely would have developed into the modern day kilt and the wearing of the Kilt in Ireland would have been as common for the Irish as it is for the Scots.
However in saying that, I feel there is a new cultural nationalism starting to take shape in Ireland, for many years the Celtic Tiger economy was the focus for many people as Ireland had never experienced such wealth for it's citizens. Now with it's decline and seeing what we have lost as well as gained Irish people are starting to look to their past with re-newed interest. The advent of talented Irish singers and dancers and the Irish Governments willingness to consider the past relationship with the Union of Great Britain is a positive one and shows signs of maturity and understanding.
I know a few of my friends who now have kilts, a generation ago unless they were pipers this wouldn't be the case, in time kilts on Irish streets will be a more fimilar sight. It only takes Irish people to have a positive understanding of their past for this to be so, now that we have gotten over the inferiority of ourselves, it is time to embrace the positives of Irishness once more.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I've just been reading through this thread, it makes me angry that Irish people from the Isle of Ireland have no idea of their own hertiage. The Leine and Brat most likely would have developed into the modern day kilt and the wearing of the Kilt in Ireland would have been as common for the Irish as it is for the Scots.

Is there any historical evidence to support this claim?

The brat and leine were the common clothing of the Gael in Scotland and Ireland prior to the sixteenth century. Starting at the end of the sixteenth century, the style evolved into feilidh-mor in the Scottish Highlands. During the seventeenth and much of the eighteenth century, the feilidh-mor was the common dress of the Highland male. Is there any evidence at all to suggest the feilidh-mor was also worn by the Irish during this period? No.

Over the course of the eighteenth century, the feilidh-mor further evolved in fashion to become the feilidh-beag, which by the end of the eighteenth century would become the tailored kilt. Again, this change of fashion occurred in the Scottish Highlands. Is there any evidence to suggest this was happening in Ireland, as well? No.

The nineteenth century continued to see the style of the kilt evolve from one that was made of four yards of cloth and box pleated to one that was made from eight yards of cloth and knife pleated. The style of pleating further changed from pleating to no pattern, to pleating to stripe, to pleating to the sett. By the time we get to the end of the nineteenth century, we have the kilt more or less as we know it today. Again, all this tronsformation of fashion took place in Scotland. Is there any evidence to suggest this occurring in Ireland? Again, no.

Let us please put an end of the myth of the kilt as an "Irish garment."

There is a reason why the kilt is referred to as "Highland Dress" or "Scottish National Dress" and not "Irish National Dress." It has nothing to do with Irish pride or overcoming a sense of inferiority or having a "positive understanding of Irish history." Rather it's simply about having a correct understanding of history based on the available evidence.

Why would it suggest that anyone have less pride in their Irish heritage if the Irish didn't historically wear kilts? In my opinion, the Irish should be proud of their history and heritage regardless of what their ancestors would or would not have worn. What does the kilt have to do with that?

[triolamj]

Actually, the Irish did have a lot to do with the development of the kilt: Irish weavers manufactured the tartan fabric in various patterns and colors meant to please the Scottish eye. Nowadays we have trade tartans for all kinds of groups, but in olden days the Irish might not have worn tartan but they certainly sold it. Google the Clodagh tartan for more details.

Every 3 or 4 years I put on my presentation for the local Irish Association called "The Irish VS. The Kilt" and I have a lot of fun with it. Kilts aren't truly native to Ireland but they can be "a Scottish expression of Irish identity".

[macwilkin]

Actually, the Irish did have a lot to do with the development of the kilt: Irish weavers manufactured the tartan fabric in various patterns and colors meant to please the Scottish eye. Nowadays we have trade tartans for all kinds of groups, but in olden days the Irish might not have worn tartan but they certainly sold it. Google the Clodagh tartan for more details.

Every 3 or 4 years I put on my presentation for the local Irish Association called "The Irish VS. The Kilt" and I have a lot of fun with it. Kilts aren't truly native to Ireland but they can be "a Scottish expression of Irish identity".

You might want to check the history of the Clodagh tartan; Matt Newsome has a very interesting article regarding it and other Irish tartans on his blog. Basically, its ancient Irish pedigree of supposedly being found in the Bog of Allen (similar to the Ulster tartan's history) had little evidence to support it.

Regards,

Todd

[Colonel MacNeal]

The Saffron is always a good choice for an Irishman, plastic or otherwise.

[O'Callaghan]

Some new points here, and some not so new.

Whilst it is true that 'Good King James'* coined both of the terms 'Great Britain' and the 'United Kingdom', they didn't come into serious use until much later, and not even with the union of parliaments, but only when most of the British Empire was gone, so that it became necessary to have terms to cover British possessions near at hand, other than simply as part of the Empire.

Not only that, but the modern usage is different from that which Good King James intended. He meant the same thing by both Great Britain and the United Kingdom, simply all the areas of which he was king. However, in Modern usage, and officially, Great Britain, aka Britain, means England, Wales and Scotland, i.e. the contiguous British mainland, whereas the United Kingdom or UK is all the above plus Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, i.e. including all the bits directly offshore that are under British rule.

Sadly, even many British people get this terminology mixed up, so it's no great wonder that Americans invariably get it wrong. I used the term 'contiguous' intentionally, as it may particularly help Americans to think of Britain as analogous to the 'lower 48', whereas the whole country is the UK. Unfortunately, even if you get it right, you may come across some drunk in a pub who still tells you that you are wrong, LOL!

As for the kilt not being Irish national dress, it is true on the one hand that it has never been recognised by the Irish government. On the other hand, the main thrust for it's adoption as such was by the Gaelic League during it's early years, and that organisation was founded in 1893, some 19 years before there was any Irish government that could have considered the matter and rendered a decision one way or the other.

Prominent early wearers of the Irish solid green or solid saffron kilt in the late 1800s and early 1900s were invariably Irish nationalists, which to many would be reason enough to wear a kilt as a symbol or Ireland. The concept is hardly new (unless to you anything a mere century old is brand new) and not likely to go away no matter how much some would like to wish it away.

As to whether the English are celts, the oldest known inhabitants of England were the Britons, who of course were Brythonic Celts by definition. To what extent the Angles and Saxons actually displaced them is not really a settled question. It was once thought that they were all driven into Wales or killed, but opinion seems to be softening on that, so the English may be some mixture of Celtic and Germanic (Angle in the North and Saxon in the South), and perhaps Norman, although it has long been thought that the Normans only married into the aristocracy and did not mix with the common people.

Of course, even if the English may have some Brythonic celtic blood, what the English are certainly not is Goidelic celts, unlike the Irish and the Scots. Unless of course, like me, you have both English and Irish blood, for example.

*I prefer to call him that, because in full he was King James II of England and King James VI of Scotland.

[Bigkahuna]

I have been reading this post and cannot help but wonder how many people left Ireland or Scotland and never wanted to be reminded of their homeland again. I know in my Wife's Grandfathers case, he just barely made it out of Ireland alive and had no interest in ever being reminded of the "Old Country".