Hands Aff Oor Kilts!

[Phil]

I can fully appreciate Mr Nicholsby's concerns that a prospective customer might say to him that the shop next door is selling the same item for a fraction of the price. Unless that customer is knowledgeable about kilts he is unlikely to be convinced by any explanation put forward regarding the differing quality of material and manufacture, particularly if both items purport to have originated in Scotland. The casual purchaser is not likely to examine a label closely or ask searching questions. He is not going to realise that an authentic garment is not made with a hem nor that it should be made with 8 yards of pure wool material. He is most likely to be a tourist on a tight budget given the relative strength of the £ nowadays and is just looking for something Scottish - and what could be more Scottish than a kilt?
I'm sorry but I really do think it is time that the likes of Mr Nicholsby grasp reality and start importing the same tartan tat for sale in their shops alongside the genuine article. That way they would at least be able to offer what many at the "bottom-end" of the market are after and perhaps use the opportunity for some education about genuine kilts at the same time. Who knows, that customer may return later for the real thing.
As for trying to enact some form of "passing-off" or "palming-off" legislation, you can be sure the likes of the Gold Bros have not got where they are by troubling themselves too much over such niceties and will devise some dodge such as "labelled in Scotland" or "unwrapped in Scotland". None of the reputable kiltmakers endorsed on this site need to resort to such underhand practices. Everyone knows their products and they don't make out they are Scottish (unless they are) so it would make no difference to them anyway.

[McClef]

Unless you either require cheap kilts to bear the term "piece of crap" (or some other sabotage in label form) or put up billboards all along the mile explaining that kilts without the seal and "scottish kilt" label are actually cheap pakistani pseudo-kilts and and that they should be avoided because yadda yadda yadda, most uninformed gold brothers customers will probably never know no matter how many rules and regulations there are.

Nobody thinks it is easy and there are limits on being able to do this kind of thing - Golds themselves tried leafleting outside the Weaving exhibition and were soon stamped down on. What one company is permitted to say about another could soon lead to lawsuits about defamation, restriction of trade etc. It would be unlikely that such a plethora of public notices would be allowed from a city council that will give you a parking ticket in seconds but seemingly let GB do what they want. The good shops could have some educational material in their windows of course, providing it is to do with warnings about certain types of kilt product without naming names...

I'm sorry but I really do think it is time that the likes of Mr Nicholsby grasp reality and start importing the same tartan tat for sale in their shops alongside the genuine article. That way they would at least be able to offer what many at the "bottom-end" of the market are after and perhaps use the opportunity for some education about genuine kilts at the same time. Who knows, that customer may return later for the real thing.

One of the arguments made has been that a cheapie might be a good way of trying out a kilt and inspiring a later purchase of a good quality one. I have argued that there should be choices of off the peg kilts available in such establishments as Howie's at cheaper prices. But I would be surprised indeed if they would have the same tat in their shops. If they believe that such kilts are potentially dangerous to begin with and they feel they have standards to maintain and don't want to be linked with the tat I can't see them descending to the level of GB. That isn't to say that they can't do something with off the peg that doesn't compromise their standards.

As for trying to enact some form of "passing-off" or "palming-off" legislation, you can be sure the likes of the Gold Bros have not got where they are by troubling themselves too much over such niceties and will devise some dodge such as "labelled in Scotland" or "unwrapped in Scotland". None of the reputable kiltmakers endorsed on this site need to resort to such underhand practices. Everyone knows their products and they don't make out they are Scottish (unless they are) so it would make no difference to them anyway.

With tight enough labelling legislation and advertising legislation they would at least find it much harder. GB have got where they are because of the lack of it. At least on this site people have the information they need to make an informed choice and a better understanding of what they are buying.

[Makeitstop]

Nobody thinks it is easy and there are limits on being able to do this kind of thing - Golds themselves tried leafleting outside the Weaving exhibition and were soon stamped down on. What one company is permitted to say about another could soon lead to lawsuits about defamation, restriction of trade etc. It would be unlikely that such a plethora of public notices would be allowed from a city council that will give you a parking ticket in seconds but seemingly let GB do what they want. The good shops could have some educational material in their windows of course, providing it is to do with warnings about certain types of kilt product without naming names...

Well, obviously what I mentioned would be unfeasible. That was the point.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the gold brothers countered attacks on tartan tat by coming up with their own seal of approval, given only to the high quality, genuine kilts in their stores. Since from what I'm told, gold brothers stores attempt to look unrelated, people might actually believe that some independent third party is endorsing all these stores and their wares.

One of the arguments made has been that a cheapie might be a good way of trying out a kilt and inspiring a later purchase of a good quality one. I have argued that there should be choices of off the peg kilts available in such establishments as Howie's at cheaper prices. But I would be surprised indeed if they would have the same tat in their shops. If they believe that such kilts are potentially dangerous to begin with and they feel they have standards to maintain and don't want to be linked with the tat I can't see them descending to the level of GB. That isn't to say that they can't do something with off the peg that doesn't compromise their standards.

I think it would definitely be better for respectable kiltmakers to try competing rather than legislating.

If they were to offer decent kilts starting somewhere between $50-$100, it would go a long way toward leveling the playing field. I know I would much rather buy a quality, machine made PV kilt from a store that is honest and open about what they are selling than deal with a sleazy vendor preying on ignorant tourists. They wouldn't necessarily have to match the competition £ for £, but they can't expect everyone to cough up $400 more for a really, really nice souvenir, a knock-around kilt, or something cool to wear to parties and bars.

People want affordable kilts. I say give the people what they want. Make a better product at an affordable price, and have obvious integrity and good customer service, and the disreputable retailers will be in real trouble.

[McClef]

Well, obviously what I mentioned would be unfeasible. That was the point.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the gold brothers countered attacks on tartan tat by coming up with their own seal of approval, given only to the high quality, genuine kilts in their stores. Since from what I'm told, gold brothers stores attempt to look unrelated, people might actually believe that some independent third party is endorsing all these stores and their wares.

From what I have seen, only one of their stores actually bears the legend "From Gold Brothers" upon it. Guess what - it was one of the tat ones! At least with their high quality kilts it is more a case of like for like but I won't buy even those on principle when I know that they are a front for their empire and that every £ is one going to build up their coffers.

I think it would definitely be better for respectable kiltmakers to try competing rather than legislating.

That would be a fair enough statement if it was all open and above board to begin with. Reputable kilt makers will not stoop to the same level of misleading the public and why should they. I just fail to understand why the concept of honest representation of goods should be seen as a foreign concept that it incompatible with free enterprise and when some players won't "play the game" why they should not be compelled to do so. Terribly British and old fashioned concept though it be!

If they were to offer decent kilts starting somewhere between $50-$100, it would go a long way toward leveling the playing field. I know I would much rather buy a quality, machine made PV kilt from a store that is honest and open about what they are selling than deal with a sleazy vendor preying on ignorant tourists. They wouldn't necessarily have to match the competition £ for £, but they can't expect everyone to cough up $400 more for a really, really nice souvenir, a knock-around kilt, or something cool to wear to parties and bars.

People want affordable kilts. I say give the people what they want. Make a better product at an affordable price, and have obvious integrity and good customer service, and the disreputable retailers will be in real trouble.

I totally agree. There is a clear case for knock around and budget kilts. There is also a case for reputable suppliers in Scotland (and especially in Edinburgh) to sharpen up their act. For me at least it's never been a case of "kilt snobbery" - heck I have some PV (but made in Scotland apart from one and that was made in Canada) in my kollection and love to wear them.

[Makeitstop]

From what I have seen, only one of their stores actually bears the legend "From Gold Brothers" upon it. Guess what - it was one of the tat ones! At least with their high quality kilts it is more a case of like for like but I won't buy even those on principle when I know that they are a front for their empire and that every £ is one going to build up their coffers.

They actually make quality kilts? I was just being sarcastic and forgot to use quotation marks or tags.

That would be a fair enough statement if it was all open and above board to begin with. Reputable kilt makers will not stoop to the same level of misleading the public and why should they. I just fail to understand why the concept of honest representation of goods should be seen as a foreign concept that it incompatible with free enterprise and when some players won't "play the game" why they should not be compelled to do so. Terribly British and old fashioned concept though it be!

Well, in this case I think the proposed legislation would do little to force them to be honest, and seems far more about promoting/protecting high end kiltmakers. Simple labeling laws that require place of manufacture and material would be a more reasonable approach, and need not be limited to kilts. In fact, I'm surprised they don't have a law to that effect already.

Telling them what they can't say will be far less effective. It's like playing taboo, there is always a way around the restrictions. So long as they don't make any objectively false claims, they can't be stopped from calling their kilts real, genuine, authentic, quality or other such terms which sound good but mean very little.

And it is possible to compete with sleazy vendors. Stores selling nice budget kilts which take a more honest approach will probably get more business than liars. Especially if there are enough of them to have a serious presence and provide an easy comparison. In my experience the difference between reputable and disreputable businesses is quite noticeable, especially once you start examining the goods. The problem right now (as I understand it) is that there really aren't any honest businesses (or at least not enough) there competing for control of the cheap kilt market. It's a choice between the gold brothers and the expensive kiltmakers.

[McClef]

They actually make quality kilts? I was just being sarcastic and forgot to use quotation marks or tags.

Yes they do - at least some of their stores now offer a made to measure service and they own the formerly independent kilt maker John Morrison and maybe others.

Well, in this case I think the proposed legislation would do little to force them to be honest, and seems far more about promoting/protecting high end kiltmakers. Simple labeling laws that require place of manufacture and material would be a more reasonable approach, and need not be limited to kilts. In fact, I'm surprised they don't have a law to that effect already.

If you mean the legislation that Howie defined yes it would create more problems than it solves. I argue that labelling is a better answer and it might well be surprising but much labelling depends upon voluntary codes which give suppliers a lot of latitude - phrases such as "low fat and "low sugar" or "no added sugar" - there was even a fruit juice that prided itself upon being "55% pure"! Simple labelling gives basic facts that make it harder to be misleading.

Telling them what they can't say will be far less effective. It's like playing taboo, there is always a way around the restrictions. So long as they don't make any objectively false claims, they can't be stopped from calling their kilts real, genuine, authentic, quality or other such terms which sound good but mean very little.

There is a difference in being objectively false and objectively misleading. I would suggest that the word "authentic" creates an impression in the mind of many in the way that it is connected with the phrases used on the labels. It would be interesting to take a sample of 100 people (who are not kilties), show them the label and ask them what they understand from it. Even as a kiltie and knowing what I know, I would say that the label goes out of its way to give a Scottish impression. If the label were then to say "Made in Pakistan" would it not then change that impression somewhat?

And it is possible to compete with sleazy vendors. Stores selling nice budget kilts which take a more honest approach will probably get more business than liars. Especially if there are enough of them to have a serious presence and provide an easy comparison. In my experience the difference between reputable and disreputable businesses is quite noticeable, especially once you start examining the goods. The problem right now (as I understand it) is that there really aren't any honest businesses (or at least not enough) there competing for control of the cheap kilt market. It's a choice between the gold brothers and the expensive kiltmakers.

Yes indeed there is a gap in the market here. You may have seen the good reviews of the kilts that Chef and I recently had from the Woollen Mill for example, and Kilt Store also offers similar items. But these all appear to be more on line than High St (no pun intended). I don't recall seeing such items in the Woollen Mill shop itself or signs advertising them; GB on the other hand stick racks outside on the street. Some really excellent makers like Celtic Craft Centre are located in side alleys, closes and wynds so their presence isn't always noticed to begin with. Some shops have a few ex rental kilts for sale on a rack in the shop but it's very much luck of the draw about the tartans and sizes available and the prices might not be what can be defined as budget (often still closer to £200 than £100). So far the budget kilt market in Edinburgh with its instant viewability and gratification is one that GB have identified and largely had to themselves.

[Phil]

there was even a fruit juice that prided itself upon being "55% pure"!

Exactly, commerce is rife with these kind of deliberately misleading claims and it is generally up to the consumer to work them out for himself. To make an inference that the Gold Brothers are a dishonest business as MakeItStop does is unfair, however. They are a very successful business who have recognised a niche in the kilt market for the "I want it cheap and I want it NOW" sector and they provide that instant gratification superbly. What is really wrong is that Mr Nicholsby and others before him have failed to realise such a lucrative market exists and will most likely go out of business as a result.

[McClef]

There are different degrees of dishonesty Phil and I think he was using it regarding the way they present their cheaper kilts and the labelling.

I even asked the staff in several of their shops where the kilts came from and they they said that they had simply no idea, they presumed Scotland. I would say that GB are trying to keep even their staff in the dark as to origin or have instructed them not to say. Some might see that as being economical with the truth.

Yes they are successful and their rivals have been slow to respond except verbally. The clothing market in general has changed and whereas the made to measure sector is still there it is much less evident than it was. I can go to M&S and get the suit jacket off one rail and the matching trousers off another and don't have to wait for several weeks for it to be made up. There is a limited range of colours and weaves etc. but many are happy to confine their choices to those that are available.

And they are now expanding into the more traditional made to measure sector also. Several kilt makers have gone out of business or been taken over. Let's hope it's not too late to stem or reverse the trend but part of the cure is indeed in their own hands.