St George`s day

[Peter C.]

The addition of the red gragon needs to include a different background colour to show it up. I prefer the green dragon as it requires minimal changes to the flag.

Peter

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Todd is there not some discussion regarding the validity of St. Patricks Cross being a true representation of Ireland, that it was only adopted because it fit well into the Union flag. That there were few, if any examples of the flag prior to the 1800's

Actually, there is ample manuscript evidence that supports the acceptance of the St. Patrick's cross as the Irish flag going back to Tudor times, and earlier. Throughout all of the Elizabethan Wars the Irish fought under the Cross of St. Patrick, as did those regiments in foreign armies on the continent in the 18th century.

After 1801 the Union flag was widely flown in Ireland, and the St. Patrick's cross became slowly relegated to ecclesiastical use (as did St. George's cross in England). At the formation of the Irish Free State the St. Patrick's cross was rejected as the flag of the new government in favor of the "revolutionary" tricolour. The use of the St. Partick's cross was favored by men such as Arthur Griffiths, and violently opposed by Eamonn DeValera (largely on religious grounds as he associated the St. Patrick's cross with the Church of Ireland (Anglican communion) even though it was displayed in virtually every Catholic church in Ireland in preference to the Union flag).

The widespread use of "national" flags in the British Isles (Scotland, Ireland, and England) dates from, roughly, the 13th-14th centuries and they become widely recognized and accepted as such by the 15th century. The antiquity of their recognition is such that, by the 19th century, the College of Arms in London is instructed by the king to include the cross of Saint Patrick in the Government and Naval flag commonly referred to as the Union Jack.

[macwilkin]

At the formation of the Irish Free State the St. Patrick's cross was rejected as the flag of the new government in favor of the "revolutionary" tricolour. The use of the St. Partick's cross was favored by men such as Arthur Griffiths, and violently opposed by Eamonn DeValera (largely on religious grounds as he associated the St. Patrick's cross with the Church of Ireland (Anglican communion) even though it was displayed in virtually every Catholic church in Ireland in preference to the Union flag).

Interesting...I knew that the "green flag" with the harp was rejected by the new government because of its association with the Redmonites and their support of the First World War, but I didn't know that Griffith propsed using the St. Patrick's Cross. It certainly stands to reason, given Griffith's quasi-monarchist tendencies.

Regards,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I don't believe that livery colours are used as the base for the elements of the Union Flag. The Blue and White for Scotland is taken from the colours of the Saltire for example.

That is correct; my original comment concerned the adding of the colour green to the Union flag. For well-established heraldic reasons this would not be possible, just as for those same reasons it would not be possible to place a dragon-- red or green-- on the present flag.

Setting aside the fact that Wales had been a principality within England for some 400 years when the first Union flag was created, and also setting aside the fact that the flag represents the union of three kingdoms that existed as such at the time of the union, the only representation possible with the present flag would be to place St. David's cross behind the existing crosses of St. Andrew, St. George, and St. Patrick. This would place the gold portion of St. David's cross (fimbriated with a black line) on either side of the arms of the cross of St. George.

This would result in the Union flag looking something like the flag of a Belgian colony (!) as Black-Gold-Red are the Belgian national colours.

While I think there is a very good reason for including Wales in the Royal Arms in an escutcheon of pretense, I don't think it would be wise to alter the Union flag, nor do I think it would be desirable to scrap the old flag in favor of something new, merely to satisfy the demands of a small, regional minority of the population of the United Kingdom.

As far as placing the Welsh Dragon in the centre of the Union flag is concerned, this was done in the early 1950s for use in Wales. This flag proved to be hugely unpopular with the Welsh and was withdrawn after three years. The complaint? They felt as if the new flag "marginalized" Wales within the United Kingdom.

I guess you just can't please everyone!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The addition of the red gragon needs to include a different background colour to show it up. I prefer the green dragon as it requires minimal changes to the flag.

Peter

Hi Peter,
It is a rule of heraldry (and flags) that you never put "colour on colour". Heraldicly speaking there are four primary colours: Red, Blue, Green, Black, and two primary metals: Gold and Silver. Colours are always placed on metals so they can be easily seen (the reverse is also true with metals always placed on colours for the same reason).

There is a big problem with placing red and green next to each other, or on top of each other, and this is due to how the human eye "sees" the spectrum of colours-- red and green in combination confuse the eye and are really hard to see. If you doubt this, look at a series of red and green stripes; after a few moments the stripes will appear to "move". (If the stripes are yellow and black and begin to move there is nothing wrong with your eyes; you are merely staring at a tiger.)

As I mentioned in my post above, the government did experiment with placing the Welsh dragon in the centre of the Union flag in the 1950s, but abandoned it due to overwhelming public displeasure in Wales at the thought they were some how being "marginalized" within the United Kingdom.

What was it P.T. Barnum said? "You can please some of the people some of the time and the rest of the people the rest of the time, but you'll never please all of the people all of the time..."

[Peter C.]

Hi Peter,
It is a rule of heraldry (and flags) that you never put "colour on colour". Heraldicly speaking there are four primary colours: Red, Blue, Green, Black, and two primary metals: Gold and Silver. Colours are always placed on metals so they can be easily seen (the reverse is also true with metals always placed on colours for the same reason).

There is a big problem with placing red and green next to each other, or on top of each other, and this is due to how the human eye "sees" the spectrum of colours-- red and green in combination confuse the eye and are really hard to see. If you doubt this, look at a series of red and green stripes; after a few moments the stripes will appear to "move". (If the stripes are yellow and black and begin to move there is nothing wrong with your eyes; you are merely staring at a tiger.)

As I mentioned in my post above, the government did experiment with placing the Welsh dragon in the centre of the Union flag in the 1950s, but abandoned it due to overwhelming public displeasure in Wales at the thought they were some how being "marginalized" within the United Kingdom.

What was it P.T. Barnum said? "You can please some of the people some of the time and the rest of the people the rest of the time, but you'll never please all of the people all of the time..."

That is interesting, and something I am not very knowledgeable about. But as I showed in the photo earlier in the thread, a Welsh regiment has already used the green dragon on the St Georges cross on the old union flag.

Peter

[macwilkin]

That is interesting, and something I am not very knowledgeable about. But as I showed in the photo earlier in the thread, a Welsh regiment has already used the green dragon on the St Georges cross on the old union flag.

Peter

That would be a regimental (sovereigns) colour though, and not a "national flag" per se -- and yes, there is a difference in terms of vexillology and military tradition.

Regards,

Tod

[ccga3359]

That is interesting, and something I am not very knowledgeable about. But as I showed in the photo earlier in the thread, a Welsh regiment has already used the green dragon on the St Georges cross on the old union flag.

Peter

According to the rules MoR has quoted the green dragon, if bordered by argent or or (white or yellow) could be placed in the centre of the red St George's cross (but not touch the white). The roman numeral III breaks the rule because the yellow touches white (metal on metal). but could be relocated in the red stripe. Those darn Welsh rebels never could follow the rules...

[McClef]

The Welsh have no connection with a green dragon that I know of - it's Y Ddraig Goch (Red Dragon) not Y Ddraig Werdd.

I don't know of the 1950s experiment but I would think that being told you can fly a Union Flag including Wales in Wales but not in the rest if the Union could be seen as somewhat marginalising.

[Peter C.]

That would be a regimental (sovereigns) colour though, and not a "national flag" per se -- and yes, there is a difference in terms of vexillology and military tradition.

Regards,

Tod

Sorry Todd, what is vexillology? It is not in my dictionary.

And Grant, does that mean that the red dragon on a white background as suggested by an MP, could be put in the middle of the St Georges cross?

Peter