untraditional traditions

[macwilkin]

It may be slightly over-simplified, but that's fine considering that one could write a book on the topic. In fact, I'd wager that the book may have been written already.

Celeste Ray's Highland Heritage: Scottish Americans in the American South. University of North Carolina Press, 2001.

I think that many of us who wear a tartan or solid traditionally styled kilt do so to honor Scot or Celtic heritage, and/or to be somewhat unconventional. When it comes to how we do it in the states (not counting UK's, X-Kilts, etc.) I think a good chunk of the difference from THCD comes from an underlying attitude that we have and I never noticed until dealing with Brits in the military. That attitude, subtle as it is, can be summed up in one sentence: "We're Americans and we'll do it our way!!!"

Don't get me wrong. I'm not stirring a hornets nest--not intending to anyway--or trying to start a new cold war. It's just that North Americans, especially in the US, have an independant streak, which combined with a cultural "melting pot" have made us adapt a lot of cultures habits, traditions, technologies, etc. to our own use and what we want it to be.

How I so hate this stereotype that somehow all Americans, particularly citizens of the USA, are all noncomformist rebels who tumb their nose at tradition. Just this week I was researching the customs of the US Marine Corps Mess Nights, and all of the literature published by Marines fully acknowledge that many customs and traditions originate from the British Armed Forces, since those were the traditons the nascent Armerican forces came from.

Given that "noncomformity" is all the fad these days, I would daresay that those of us who are more traditionalist are the real individuals, because we do not conform.

It's 2010 now, and in the last few years there has been an increase in the number of Americans wearing the kilt. Granted, many wear it for special occasions, some much more frequently. Check again in 2020 and I think we'll see a "new tradition" here. It's still relatively new to a lot of people here. Many people picking up the kilt are the first in their family, or the first in several generations. Fashions evolve, and I think that given time for evolution to take it's course we will probably see a "split" with THCD and a more contemporary American style emerge. No doubt it will be similar to what we see today, and will not be drastically different from what will be worn in the Highlands ten years from now. The differences will be in the details, which is really what makes it what it is.

Of course there will be holdouts...traditionalists who refuse to change. That's fine. They'll yell and scream about how it's all wrong and things just shouldn't be done that way. Blue jeans became accepted in everyday dress despite those complaints. So did the t-shirt.

Whatever happens though, I think ultimately we should be supportive of each other. Allow change to happen, because if history teaches anything, it's that change WILL happen. As Red Green would say "We're all in this together. I'm pullin' for ya'."

Not all change is good. It will happen as you say, but cheers to those who resist change just for change's sake. Old does not always equal bad. I'll be right there with them on the traditionalist barracades!

Does that make me a "Revolutionary Reactionary"? My head hurts...

T.

[Whidbey78]

Alan H,

Maybe there needs to be a more accurate title for the forum.

On my browser it says "Modern Kilt Wear The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today. (Basically from the mid 1980's to today.)"

The title "Modern Kilt Wear" implies modern ways of wearing a kilt, not specifically modern styles of kilts.

"The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today" does not specify modern style kilts, just modern ways of wearing it, which is what this thread is about.

Perhaps there should be forum just for modern kilt styles and one for modern wearing of kilts in general.

Can't we all just get along??

[Alan H]

Then report the thread to the Moderators and ask them to move it to a more appropriate forum, Allen.

T.

No, I don't think it's in the wrong forum, Todd. I just think that over time, the thinking about what is/is not "contemporary" has changed. X Marks has changed. Good, bad, whatever, it's just changed.

If this was the "Utilikilt forum" then...yeah, I'd report it.

Besides, I HATE...hate, hate, hate whining to the mods. I never, ever, ever do it.

[Alan H]

Alan H,

Maybe there needs to be a more accurate title for the forum.

On my browser it says "Modern Kilt Wear The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today. (Basically from the mid 1980's to today.)"

The title "Modern Kilt Wear" implies modern ways of wearing a kilt, not specifically modern styles of kilts.

"The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today" does not specify modern style kilts, just modern ways of wearing it, which is what this thread is about.

Perhaps there should be forum just for modern kilt styles and one for modern wearing of kilts in general.

Can't we all just get along??

Yes, I noted that I'd got the title of the forum wrong. And I think you are entirely right in what it implies. AND, just for the record, I'm of the opinion that we have more than enough "kilt discussion categories" already, and the current title fits this just fine.

Now, as for "Can't we all get along?" the answer is "No, we can't". There are a few, not many but a few people on this forum that I don't care to "get along with", in the slightest. I expect that I am not the only one who feels that way. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and as long as they don't personally attack another member or resort to gross profanity, they should be able to express their opinions.

...no matter how close-minded, uptight, and didactic they may be.

Look at it this way. We're all so blazingly proud to be Scottish here. OMG, the forum is all about how terribly Scottish we all are and how proud of our Heritage we are. Yet, somehow in all this, people conveniently forget that our ancestors fought like cats and dogs all over Scotland, raided cattle, slaughtered opposing clansmen and so on for a good thousand years and more. Is your Heritage from the Borders? Funny how so many "celebrate" the fact that most of the Border families perfected the arts of murder, pillage, rape, blackmail, and betrayal, and there's 600 years of history to prove it. If you really want to know, I think it sounds like nonstop gang warfare to me. It's no different from family feudin' through six generations in the Applachians. Boy, we all love to glorify our Heritage.... as long as we don't actually have to think about ALL of it.

.... but yet somehow when we come to X Marks, we're supposed to not disagree significantly on anything. Everybody here is SO SCOTTISH and yet we're so UNFAILINGLY POLITE. Uh. Gee. What's wrong with this picture?

I try. I really do try. I curb my tongue. I don't go to forums where I know I will see things that annoy me. I utilize the "ignore" feature to make both my experience and others experiences in X Marks more relaxed and friendly. But no, my friend Whidby, I do NOT care to "get along" with everybody on X Marks, all the while being quite aware that this forum is about CLOTHES, and not really about anything life-or-death.

[Whidbey78]

Cajunscot,

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that all change is good. It will happen, and whether or not to go with it is up to you.

I'm a Navy vet, and I am well aware that MOST US Navy/Marine Corp traditions came from the Brits. But there are differences between how we do things and how they do it. And I'm not saying that we're a country who simply gives the finger to everyone, but we DO adapt others' traditions, technology and even language to fit within our culture. The corned beef and cabbage example given earlier is a good one. An even better one is Christmas. The "traditional" American Christmas celebration (think Norman Rockwell) is an amalgamation of traditions, rituals, foods, songs, and legends and folklore of at least a dozen countries. When was the last time you sung Silent Night in German? Do your kids get a picture taken with Basil of Caesarea, Saint Nicolas in robes, or today's version of "Santa?" We do almost everything differently from the rest of the world. It's not always a drastic difference...often it's very subtle. We even do things differently from one part of the US to the next. It's not about "non-conformity" it's about having your own style. That style will be influenced by your environment, culture, cash flow, etc. etc. etc.

Do we wear a kilt differently here? For the most part, yes we do. There are folks who feel it should be done in a specific way and some who are a bit more liberal about it. Some believe it should be done EXACTLY as it would be in the Highlands. Others are a little looser about it and find it acceptable as long as it is close, and in the spirit of the tradition (which, for the record is where I sit). Still, others will choose to wear a t-shirt, kilt, and Nikes. They are all entitled to their opinion and have the right to do things how they like.

So, yes, I think you will see a unique Americanized style emerge in time. And if you take a deep breath and calm down and re-read it you will see that I also said that I doubt it will be all that different. Now...I can wrap this up. We do things differently in the US...however, we feel strong ties to traditions and we adapt in that spirit. The differences will be in details. I don't see the Argyle and PC being replaced by a denim jacket. I could see a simplified version of each developing...similar, but maybe more understated with dark buttons as opposed to chrome, epauletes might go away, or the pocket flaps. We may see the fur sporran decline for dress and be replaced by a finely detailed leather unit. Straps may become acceptable in formal situations instead of chains. Who knows? Wait...I can answer that...none of us! It's just what I think will happen based on current trends.

As I said before, it's fashion(granted it is also a respected and universally recognized icon of a specific, and very beautiful culture) and has changed over time and will continue to do so. All I'm doing is what the weatherman on TV does. "We know what's happened, what's happening now, and my best guess of what will happen next is__________________."

And thanks for the book title. I'm looking it up as soon as I hit the submit reply button.

[Whidbey78]

Oops..duplicate post.

[macwilkin]

Cajunscot,

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that all change is good. It will happen, and whether or not to go with it is up to you.

I'm a Navy vet, and I am well aware that MOST US Navy/Marine Corp traditions came from the Brits. But there are differences between how we do things and how they do it. And I'm not saying that we're a country who simply gives the finger to everyone, but we DO adapt others' traditions, technology and even language to fit within our culture. The corned beef and cabbage example given earlier is a good one. An even better one is Christmas. The "traditional" American Christmas celebration (think Norman Rockwell) is an amalgamation of traditions, rituals, foods, songs, and legends and folklore of at least a dozen countries. When was the last time you sung Silent Night in German? Do your kids get a picture taken with Basil of Caesarea, Saint Nicolas in robes, or today's version of "Santa?" We do almost everything differently from the rest of the world. It's not always a drastic difference...often it's very subtle. We even do things differently from one part of the US to the next. It's not about "non-conformity" it's about having your own style. That style will be influenced by your environment, culture, cash flow, etc. etc. etc.

Given that I teach history & folklore, I'm well aware of what you describe here. I frequently lecture on St. Patrick's Day as symbolic of how Irish-Americans struggled to fit in to traditional "native" American society, as well as how most Evangelical Protestant Americans of Puritian and Presbyterian stock rejected Christmas as a "papist" holiday until the end of the 19th century.

And for the record, my children will know both St. Nicholas's Day (Dec. 6) and Santa Claus, a la Coca Cola and Norman Rockwell. My son, who will soon make his arrival, will be named for the Bishop of Myra in fact.



T.

[BoldHighlander]

Look at it this way. We're all so blazingly proud to be Scottish here. OMG, the forum is all about how terribly Scottish we all are and how proud of our Heritage we are. Yet, somehow in all this, people conveniently forget that our ancestors fought like cats and dogs all over Scotland, raided cattle, slaughtered opposing clansmen and so on for a good thousand years and more. Is your Heritage from the Borders? Funny how so many "celebrate" the fact that most of the Border families perfected the arts of murder, pillage, rape, blackmail, and betrayal, and there's 600 years of history to prove it. If you really want to know, I think it sounds like nonstop gang warfare to me. It's no different from family feudin' through six generations in the Applachians. Boy, we all love to glorify our Heritage.... as long as we don't actually have to think about ALL of it.

I must be one of the few people then that actually thinks about it & actually glories in it!

[Whidbey78]

Given that I teach history & folklore, I'm well aware of what you describe here. I frequently lecture on St. Patrick's Day as symbolic of how Irish-Americans struggled to fit in to traditional "native" American society, as well as how most Evangelical Protestant Americans of Puritian and Presbyterian stock rejected Christmas as a "papist" holiday until the end of the 19th century.

And for the record, my children will know both St. Nicholas's Day (Dec. 6) and Santa Claus, a la Coca Cola and Norman Rockwell. My son, who will soon make his arrival, will be named for the Bishop of Myra in fact.



T.

Okay...I was getting a little heated there, but I'm better. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wants to teach his son "our" traditions but also where they came from and how it was done by the people who originated them before being assimilated into the American Collective. (Star Trek reference...how nerdy)

Congrats on the upcoming child...mine is only 5 months, so he doesn't care what I tell him yet as long as he's warm and fed and has a nap and clean diaper. Oh, for the simplicity of infancy.

There is, I believe, plenty of room for the staunch traditionalist, the neo-traditionalist, the rebel, the confused, the curious and all points in between.

Oh, and I'm only 1/4 Scot. 1/4 Irish and the rest is (gulp) Welsh. I'll crawl into the bomb shelter now.

[macwilkin]

Okay...I was getting a little heated there, but I'm better. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wants to teach his son "our" traditions but also where they came from and how it was done by the people who originated them before being assimilated into the American Collective. (Star Trek reference...how nerdy)

Congrats on the upcoming child...mine is only 5 months, so he doesn't care what I tell him yet as long as he's warm and fed and has a nap and clean diaper. Oh, for the simplicity of infancy.

There is, I believe, plenty of room for the staunch traditionalist, the neo-traditionalist, the rebel, the confused, the curious and all points in between.

Oh, and I'm only 1/4 Scot. 1/4 Irish and the rest is (gulp) Welsh. I'll crawl into the bomb shelter now.

No worries. My daughter turned 2 in March, and has to deal with a Iowa Scottish father and a Cajun/Creole Louisiana mother.

T.