Dress Codes

[CMcG]

Wow, I go to sleep for a few hours and come back to another 4 pages of lively discussion! Thanks everyone for keeping this both interesting and civil

I think part of the discussion here is eliding the small but distinct difference between nationality and citizenship. Being a citizen is a fairly clear cut political status. Nationality, however, comes from the Latin root natio (birth), which gives it richer meaning. It includes a nuance of ethnicity that bare citizenship does not.

For the record, the four nations recognized as being the founders of Canada are English, French, Scottish, and Irish. So yes, the Scottish roots go deep... On the other hand, the Chinese have been in Canada since before confederation and Cantonese is the third most spoken language, after the two official ones. It is somewhat of an oversight IMHO that the Chinese do not receive more recognition in Canada, not to mention the short shrift given to native Canadians!

<snip>
Perhaps a kilt in the Maple Leaf tartan and a Canadian flag lapel pin will be in order for the next time!

I had the Maple Leaf lapel pin and kilt pin, but am still working on a Maple Leaf tartan kilt. Nonetheless, I had a number of people seeking confirmation that my tartan was the one associated with my surname (it was) and they seemed to expect that... A beaver sporran would also have been a nice touch I think!

As for anyone's confusion, not once did I claim to be a Scottish citizen. I made it clear to anyone I spoke with that I am a Canadian with Scottish ancestors and that the kilt is the national attire of my heritage. Perhaps some people may have been thrown off if they only saw me but didn't actually interact... I don't think, however, that anyone would have made the mistake of thinking that the kilt is the national attire of Canada.

Oh, and Jock, by "wearing it well" I meant that I thought you would have approved of my outfit even if you didn't approve of the context. Did you see the purple and gold school tie that I wore? I didn't give a thought about trying to match it to anything else I was wearing

[Nick the DSM]

Hummm, why is it that I am not convinced?

...because I'm a know-nothing 19 year old?

Though, I was talking about citizenship and nationalities, and how people...ah, nevermind...

[xman]

It is somewhat of an oversight IMHO that the Chinese do not receive more recognition in Canada, not to mention the short shrift given to native Canadians!

Well, if severely under-, stated.

[Lyle1]

If nothing else, this discussion illustrates that the membership of this forum is multinational and, by default, multicultural. It is easier to know what a person feels or believes than to understand why he or she has such feelings or beliefs. I think it is particularly difficult to truly understand the impact of national or ethnic cultures on a person’s makeup, if you do not share that culture to at least some degree.

It is harder for me to fully appreciate the sentiments expressed by members from Scotland than those from Canada. Living in the USA, I have more in common with Canadians than Scots, and there are more opportunities to interface with Canadians. When I am in Canada, I am not usually identified as being from the USA, unless I order “hot tea” in a restaurant. (If you do not understand the hot tea reference, remember what I said about not understanding cultural differences.)

Members from the USA and Canada will have problems understanding why the Scottish feel the kilt “belongs” to native born Scots and all others are interlopers to some degree. It is obvious that members from other countries (and cultures) do not comprehend what Americans mean when we identify ourselves with hyphenated labels such as Scottish-American or French-Canadian. It isn’t easy to explain our cultures; we don’t think about or question what we have grown up believing and feeling, so how can we explain it to someone who has not shared our experiences. Actually, I feel that knowing that we our differing opinions are culturally based should be enough; we should be sensitive and respectful regarding our differences in general, and there should certainly be no need to defend our culturally based differences. “It is what it is,” as we currently say in the USA.

[Phil]

Well it is true Trefor things have moved a tad since my youth. In the 1940's/50's to my certain knowledge the lowland Scots were scathing about the kilt. These days, they know a good thing when they see it----helped by an ever strengthening national pride I suspect and the kilt is now "our" National dress. I cannot say who decided it, or when, but there we go.

I still find it amusing that many Lowlanders have now turned turned into kilt "experts", particularly when they get it oh so wrong!

There you go again, Jock, and I can only presume that some traumatic event happened to you in your youth which has engendered this deep-seated cynicism about your fellow Scots whose only sin seems to be that they live in another part of this country of ours that we call Scotland. My own (and this is also just as certain as yours) knowledge about attitudes towards the kilt is quite different and, although I can only go back to the 1950's, my recollection is one of a general love of the kilt, a pride in wearing it and seeing it worn, and all of this in a place which you would, no doubt, describe as "The Lowlands". I have previously posted a receipt for a kilt bought in the early 1950's in the "Lowlands" of all places and my scouting memories from that time recall a rash of kilt-wearing contemporaries. So, Jock, I must disagree with you in no uncertain terms and suggest that you refrain from such sweeping generalisations based upon some past imagined slight.

[AFS1970]

So in terms of dress code what it seems to boil down to is this. As a non-Scot (although like so many hear an American of Scottish decent) should the event say Highland Dress then I am fine wearing the kilt. However should it say black tie or national dress, then I am restricted to black tie, as America has no national dress. Should it say black tie or Highland dress, then I guess the choice is mine.

That actually makes a fair amount of sense to me personally as when I think of it, the handful of formal events I have attended from school proms to weddings (with the notable exception of my own) I have generally worn Saxon formal wear, but I bought my kilt almost entirely to wear to Scottish themed functions when I was a member of the Saint Andrew's Society.

Now I will say that Canada having such a strong identity with Scotland complicates that theory a bit, but not being Canadian it is really not mine to worry about such things.

Now one place where I think there might be some crossover from military to civilian in all of this is a retired member of a kilted regiment who is not ethnically Scottish but still wears his kilt with civilian formal attire. Since so many people associate the kilt with a family connection, the site of someone who did not look Scottish in a kilt might be shocking site to some if they can not readily see a family connection. Although the proliferation of district tartans let alone regimental ones makes this a non starter.

[Meadcrafter]

Not sure I understand all of this.

My name is McLean, my fathers name was McLean, as was his fathers and his father (also a McLean) was born in Parrish of Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland.

I feel as if wearing my family tartan is a birthright.

My grandfather played the bagpipes and wore his kilt, surely handed down from his father, who surely brought them with him from his homeland.

I say surely because there wasn't money to be had for such things.

In the spring I will attend my clan gathering.

Wearing the clan tartan, while not required, is encouraged. I assume much of the tartan will be worn as kilts. By McLeans from all over the world. And has been for 100 years.

Yet somehow I am to believe that this is all wrong? That somehow I'm not good enough to wear a kilt, just because I wasn't born on Scotish soil?

Well, then I will be wrong, in my kilt, in my castle, with my clan, in Scottland.

[Laird_M]

Meadcrafter,
You have every right to wear your family tartan,and I don't thik anyone would contest that right.

If you think of the many people that 'built' America, you'll find a large amount of Scottish blood in there.

I wasn't born on Skye, but the MacLeod blood flows through my veins. And even my step(oh, how I REALLY hate that term! ), son sees himself as part of our Clan and wants his own regalia.


Whilst your passport may say 'American', your ancestry is Scottish, and I'm guessing your heart says so too.


Be proud to be an American AND a Scot!

[Joshua]

It's simple.

A distinction between ethnic dress and national dress is being inferred here.

I still think the whole discussion, of "Who is entitled to wear the kilt" which raises it's ugly head often, is simply a resuscitated horse, being reanimated solely for the purpose of beating him dead again.

This thread has diverted into one of those threads, but originally was NOT ABOUT who is entitled to wear the kilt. We've beat that horse, soundly, and honestly I don't believe the previous arguments have swayed anyone from their opinions.

What is NOT being said is "You can't wear a kilt because you aren't a Scot" line...

What is being said is "It would be bad form to wear the kilt if you aren't from Scotland, and are asked to wear national dress at an international function." Which is agreeable, I think, considering that an American is not a Scot, it would be inappropriate for an American to wear a kilt to a Formal International function where National Dress is expected. Scotland isn't an American's Nation.

As I've mentioned before, I do believe that Canadians and other Commonwealth members could potentially be granted some leeway here... even if I'm disagreed with. For what it's worth, CmcG made it look good and handled it well... ultimately that's what matters.

[Phil]

My name is McLean, my fathers name was McLean, as was his fathers and his father (also a McLean) was born in Parrish of Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland.

Sadly, Meadcrafter, if your antecedents came from Bothwell in Lanarkshire then they would possibly be regarded as "Lowlanders" by some here, and as such are prevented from engaging in kilt-wearing which, as we all know, is the sole preserve of "Highlanders". Quite what exactly is the distinction between a "Highlander" and a "Lowlander" has never actually been defined by the proponents of this segregation so until it is I believe that you are quite entitled to carry on wearing your kilt as and when you choose to do so.