so this is what we've come to? (Prince Charlie)

**Phil** · 29th November 13, 04:49 AM

I think we have to appreciate the distinction between "Highland dress" and "Formal dress". The kilt is a versatile garment which can easily fit into both categories and can be worn with anything from a T-shirt through to a sweater or tweed jacket depending on the wearer's individual taste. Formal dress, however, operates within fairly strictly defined rules for the reason of avoiding embarrassment both to the wearer and to the rest of the company. You could almost say it is a civilian uniform and has developed a set of rules for this purpose. It has been said many times before - if you don't like the rules then politely decline the invitation.

**Mike M.** · 29th November 13, 05:35 AM

Phil raises a good point. Men's clothing, in particular, can be fitted into uniform concepts - a matrix of Day/Evening, and Full Dress, Dress, Working, and Fatigue.

**Nathan** · 29th November 13, 05:48 AM

The rules of formal Highland dress seem to be changing. The brochure that OC Richard posted is from Anderson's, the predecessor to the highly respected Kinloch Anderson. This company invented, well... evolved really, the coatee as well as the kenmore doublet. Let's see what they're offering today. Here's how they currently choose to market their Regulation Doublet:

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And their Sherriffmuir doublet...

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A few things to note about their website. 1) They sell day brogues and ghillie brogues. All of their gents wearing evening wear are in polished ghilllie brogues rather than bar and buckle brogues. They don't even offer Mary Janes or any type of buckle shoe.

Although many of the gents wearing evening jackets are wearing tartan hose (with their ghillie brogues), the two I posted above which are ads for expensive bespoke jackets are wearing white hose. They even chose to outfit the model in the Regulation Doublet ad with a fly plaid!

So even Kinloch Anderson, not just Gold Brothers and the like, has on their modern web catalogue, a man with a fly plaid, white hose, tartan flashes and ghillie brogues.

They also sell semi-dress sporrans which they pair with the popular jacket that is also neither fish (formal) nor foul (day wear), the black barathea Argyll.

How can we use a 1930s catalogue from the same company as evidence that this is a faux pas? Wouldn't it be more accurate to suggest that this is a style change? Are are we all also out of line for not having slicked hair and skinny moustaches?

The Highland House of Frazer based in Inverness offers similar items:
http://www.highlandhouseoffraser.com...sp?maincat=342

Have they lost their way or are the detractors just clinging to the past?

To be clear, I enjoy my diced hose and shoe buckles and don't own a fly plaid but as Dylan said, "the times, they are a changin'"

**BCAC** · 29th November 13, 07:27 AM

Bah! Humbug! Don't like change. Nothing new fangled for me! Too old for it, I suppose.

I do happen to have a car, a computer and (begrudgingly) a mobile phone, though.

**KiltFitz** · 29th November 13, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Nathan

A few things to note about their website. 1) They sell day brogues and ghillie brogues. All of their gents wearing evening wear are in polished ghilllie brogues rather than bar and buckle brogues. They don't even offer Mary Janes or any type of buckle shoe.

Not that I love buckled shoes particularly but that's not entirely accurate. They do sell them although they are admittedly not on the website, See the following picture. I am sure the model didn't bring his own:

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**Phil** · 29th November 13, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Nathan

The rules of formal Highland dress seem to be changing. The brochure that OC Richard posted is from Anderson's, the predecessor to the highly respected Kinloch Anderson.

You should be aware that nowadays Kinloch Anderson do not operate as a "bespoke" tailor in the way that their 1930's predecessor did. All their garments are bought in "off the peg" apart from kilts which I believe they still do make themselves. They are in the business of modern-day "never mind the quality - feel the width" clothing retailers who operate nowadays from an industrial unit in Leith. If you really insist they will suggest travelling down to London where they have a relationship with Dege & Skinner, Savile Row bespoke tailors. Quite why they do this is beyond me when we have fine bespoke tailors here in Edinburgh but it may come down to competition issues.

**Nathan** · 29th November 13, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Phil

You should be aware that nowadays Kinloch Anderson do not operate as a "bespoke" tailor in the way that their 1930's predecessor did. All their garments are bought in "off the peg" apart from kilts which I believe they still do make themselves. They are in the business of modern-day "never mind the quality - feel the width" clothing retailers who operate nowadays from an industrial unit in Leith. If you really insist they will suggest travelling down to London where they have a relationship with Dege & Skinner, Savile Row bespoke tailors. Quite why they do this is beyond me when we have fine bespoke tailors here in Edinburgh but it may come down to competition issues.

They offer three levels of every jacket on their website. Off the peg, made to measure and bespoke.

Even their off the peg stuff is very fine quality.

I have to disagree with you.

**Phil** · 29th November 13, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Nathan

They offer three levels of every jacket on their website. Off the peg, made to measure and bespoke.

Even their off the peg stuff is very fine quality.

I have to disagree with you.

You are perfectly entitled to disagree with me and I didn't say anything about the quality of their "stuff". My point is that no-one should be under any illusion that they are getting a "bespoke" garment.

**Nathan** · 29th November 13, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Phil

You are perfectly entitled to disagree with me and I didn't say anything about the quality of their "stuff". My point is that no-one should be under any illusion that they are getting a "bespoke" garment.

Why do they take so many specific measurements and charge so much more on their "special order" versions if they aren't bespoke?

http://www.kinlochanderson.com/sheri...-special-order

**Phil** · 29th November 13, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nathan

Why do they take so many specific measurements and charge so much more on their "special order" versions if they aren't bespoke?

Please allow me to know what is or is not "bespoke" and I can assure you that giving your measurements over the internet is not "bespoke". I don't wish to sound patronising but, unless you have actually visited a "proper" bespoke tailor it may be difficult to understand the distinction. There you visit their establishment, are measured and any physical variations taken into account, a pattern is made and a garment constucted to these particular measurements as they specifically apply to you. The garment is then made and fitted and any adjustments necessary made before leaving the shop. I cannot speak for Kinloch Anderson, who are a very reputable company, but what you are getting is not "bespoke". They use "in-house" seamestressess to make any alterations. If you choose to visit their London colleagues at Dege & Skinner you should achieve that.