so this is what we've come to? (Prince Charlie)

[Downunder Kilt]

Phil, I cannot agree with you more. There was a thread about bespoke, made to measure/custom and off the peg some time ago and it appeared that a lot of pepole confused bespoke with made to measure/custom. I am sure that there are many members here that have had made to measure/custom highland attire made for them. There are few people that can afford true bespoke garments. Bespoke is not having a existing pattern altered for you, it is the creation of an entirley new pattern filling all your requirements, and as Phil states, it involves multiple fittings and consultations with your tailor.

[TheOfficialBren]

I have a few thoughts on this and have written my usual long-winded thesis:

1) Bespoke, in my mind, means completely custom, tailored to you and customised to your specifications. Want two pockets instead of three? No problem. Different liner for your jacket? You got it! Whatever YOU, the customer wants. bespoke=custom tailormade. Freedom Kilts come to mind here. They seem to offer more custom options on a kilt than anyone that I've seen.

2) Made-to-measure means just that. Made to measure...but without the customisable extras--not as many options but still made to fit you properly. USA Kilts seems to do a lot of business in this category. I have gone this route and have been quite pleased. I often wish that big box retailers would vanish and be replaced by this model.

3) Off-the-peg means just that. No customisable options. No measurements taken. You get what you get. Stillwater Kilts come to mind. There is nothing wrong with this route...just be aware of what you are buying.

4) The 70s example from Steve is excellent. I woill go one further. To my newbie eyes some of the standards of formal Highland wear do appear to be dated and draconian. Sorry, men, but ruffles, jabots, Mary Janes and the like to the average person who knows nothing about formal wear (the vast majority of the populace I believe)...muchless formal Highland wear. They only know what they see on film or Google. Some of these options do very much look extremely dated...by a few centuries. As I have come to learn more and glean from the knowledge and experience of the rabble, I have learned that this is not the intention. Sometimes, however, an outside perspective is desperately needed. I mean no offence but these are my thoughts...but seriously, if I showed u to a white tie event (nevermind the kilt aspect) dressed in a lace jabo with lace cuffs and whatever doublet we have been discussing...I would maybebe given props for dressing historically. The other attendees would most likely comment amongst themselves that I was dressed oddly or in an outlandish way. Others might make rude comments and ask me where I left my powder wig. Seriously...in America (outside of the die-hard kilted community) when one sees such things that is what is assumed (regardless of the history of Highland fashions).

Assuming that we, the kilted ones, are ahead of the curve then shouldn't we be embracing new ideas and styles? Formality has a place and set rules for a reason...but even with changing styles formality is still firmly formal.

Personally, less-is-more with me. I have yet to attend a formal dig whilest kilted but I have worn a few tuxedos. Understatement can make a huge impace. If you choose to look like the Monarch of the Glen then (to quote Jock's famous words) the choice is entirely yours. I would much ratheer wear a modern style up top and elegant traditinal stuff on bottom (minus Mary Janes or Ghillie Brogues...both are entirely off-putting romme). Castellated tartan or Argyle hose with modern shoes? Heck, yeah! Vintage MOD cantled hair sporran? You betcha!!! Sheriffmuir/Montrose with lace...um...no.

5) Lastly, we emphasis the propriety of formal wear far more often than day/casual wear. Why is this? Most men will never attend a white tie event in their entire life. Fact. Most will only attend a handful of black tie events in their lifetime. Fact. Some men attend several or man of these events in a year. Most, overwhelmingly, will not/do not. Proper is one thing. Implacable rigidity is another.

Long post but I have read and digested the entire thread and these are my thoughts.

If you do not wish to read my whole thread then here is a summary: fashions change. Adapt or become a relic.

P.S.:
Yes, the guy in the OP is a model. End of story. I guarantee that he hasn't given it a second thought after depositing his cheque...and fly plaids are silly (so are white hose).

[Father Bill]

You know what I like about the discussions here? It starts to sound as if, all input considered, we're starting to come to a consensus! What a concept!

[Nathan]

When I typed that, I kind of knew this would come back on me. You are both, of course, correct. Momentary lapse.
When I mentioned the three options in the post above, I referred to made to measure and bespoke as separate items.

My experience with hong kong "bespoke" shirt makers that offer made to measure and bespoke options is that they sell both over the internet but the "bespoke" option takes for more detailed measurements.

Classically speaking, you are right to point out that this online bespoke option is really not bespoke because you have to measure yourself and because the "fitting" process is skipped entirely.

Well played, Phil.

My original point still stands, however, that Kinloch Anderson is a far cut above the Pakistani ebay/tartan tat shop providers and that even in that world, white hose is showing up.

Incidentally, who would you suggest is the gold standard Highland Outfitter in Scotland? I know you like Stewart Christie, but Highland items seem to be just a small part of what they do and their website isn't very visual.

Would a place like House of Labhran qualify?

[StevieR]

This is a great thread. Lively, considered discussion, conducted in a most pleasant manner.

And as for you Bren ". . . we, the kilted ones, are ahead of the curve. . ." Brilliant! Can I use that under my signature?

[Downunder Kilt]

Although in England, I would suggest, for jackets, Myer and Mortimer. http://www.meyerandmortimer.com/

[KiltFitz]

You know what I like about the discussions here? It starts to sound as if, all input considered, we're starting to come to a consensus! What a concept!

No, I cannot agree....

Just kidding!

Yes, we definitely seem to agree that if you like it, then by all means wear it. I like this, but not that, you don't think something is appropriate, I do - that's all personal taste which is allowed to be affected by tradition, innovation, fashion and everything else we have discussed. At times my choices are affected by someone else's opinion. Certainly that has happened since I joined Xmarks.

For me, what this thread has been good for is pointing out the differences between the various levels of quality in the market which pleases me greatly because for many retailers, there is no profit in mentioning that there are levels of quality which they don't offer - so they don't mention them.

Can you imagine if there were someone at least as knowledgeable and enthusiastic as the contributors to this thread in every highlandwear outfit? Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't customers get a much better, fairer deal. More to the point, wouldn't they, in turn be likely to be happier wearing kilts and highland dress (whatever option they decide upon) and pass that enthusiasm on to others? Informed customers are happier customers, happy customers come back again, and maybe bring their friends with them.

Just a quick opinion about the top end: My mouth starts to water at the mere thought of dropping a bundle of cash in Stewart Christie or Kinloch Anderson but I have to say that in terms of kilts, hand sewn by an independent kiltmaker is about the best you can do and it doesn't really matter where the shop is, more about the skill and expertise of the maker. That won't necessarily be someone who has opted to work exclusively for an outfitter. Although those outfitters are beyond my means, there are numerous very talented independent tailors in my area and I could approach them with my requirements and request that they make it for me in any material that can be sourced. I feel certain it would be of equal or greater quality than more established suppliers who would charge me considerably more because they deal more often with people who don't even ask about price before ordering. For me, artisan is the way to go because the choices are endless. That said, sometimes I can't afford artisan either, it depends what it is needed for and how important the quality is to me.

[TheOfficialBren]

This is a great thread. Lively, considered discussion, conducted in a most pleasant manner.

And as for you Bren ". . . we, the kilted ones, are ahead of the curve. . ." Brilliant! Can I use that under my signature?

By all means, cousin!

BTW, I completely agree that this forum is a great place to come for advice, opinions, and knowledge. We might not always agree about how kilts are best worn...but we all agree on one thing: we love to wear our kilts and we are generally glad to see kilts being worn rather than hung up.

Wear it proudly, wear it loudly; wear it quietly, wear it privately. Either way, (to borrow from Nike) Just Wear It!

[Phil]

My original point still stands, however, that Kinloch Anderson is a far cut above the Pakistani ebay/tartan tat shop providers and that even in that world, white hose is showing up.

Incidentally, who would you suggest is the gold standard Highland Outfitter in Scotland? I know you like Stewart Christie, but Highland items seem to be just a small part of what they do and their website isn't very visual.

It's not really liking Stewart Christie, just that they will supply a superb hand sewn kilt at the same, or slightly less, price as Kinloch Anderson. I know this is a difficult subject to describe in this day of cheap, off the peg clothing sourced from oriental sweatshops but it is still possible to obtain traditional bespoke tailoring if you go to the right tailor. London's Savile Row has them and here in Edinburgh the likes of Stewart Christie provide an equivalent service. I fully understand that such tailoring is maybe not available elsewhere and, therefore, the quality is perhaps not fully understood.
Whether everyone would feel this quality is worth paying for is another matter, particularly when a similar garment can be bought for less and altered to fit.

[Nathan]

Whether everyone would feel this quality is worth paying for is another matter, particularly when a similar garment can be bought for less and altered to fit.

If you can afford it, this is a great option. We have bespoke tailors here but for the reason you mentioned, I don't use them to make me clothes. I do, however take clothes to a local bespoke tailor to be altered as a matter of course. His work is miles better than the drycleaners that advertise alterations and he is not much more expensive when it comes to alterations.

Bespoke suits in Toronto start at about $1800 and the base model isn't going to make you very excited. There is a Scottish shop here who will make you tweeds to measure for a reasonable price but for bespoke they charge about four or five times as much.